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  #151  
Old Apr 27, '17, 12:45 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by KnowtheSilence View Post
If memory serves, the life expectancy at the time was that if you survived childhood Ė which was a big if Ė then you had a 50/50 chance of making it to your mid-40ís; your chances of seeing each additional year after that plummeted pretty quickly. Since Mark was written 30+ years after the crucifixion at best, we can expect that a lot of the people who would have been around at the time were dead already.
You seem to be starting from the idea that no one proclaimed the resurrection until 30 years after the crucifixion.

This is contradicted by the historical texts.

Let's start from the fact that the resurrection of Christ (whether it actually happened or not) started being professed from the very beginning.

Now how do you refute the fact that if it were a lie people wouldn't come forth and just go to the tomb of the dead and buried Jesus?

Quote:
Of the ones who were left, what would be the motivating factor to go as far as to write a refutation of the people going around saying there was an empty tomb because Jesus resurrected? Most who heard it would have just dismissed it and gone about their lives.
Source for this in bold, please.
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  #152  
Old Apr 27, '17, 1:01 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Consider this: Mormonism has been effectively debunked as far as its major historical claims go. Any fair-minded examination of the evidence would lead one to conclude that it is a fabrication created by a con man. And yet the Mormon Church continues to grow in the US. Itís one of the few Christian denominations (I know, itís debatable to call them ďChristianĒ; I donít really care and am not going to debate that point) that is growing. Itís growth has slowed of late, but itís better than the decline that so many others are seeing. And this is with a religion that has been thoroughly debunked. So is it really so unthinkable that something like the story of an empty tomb could take hold an spread, even if it was easily debunked?
This is true--people will continue to believe contrary to facts. Mormonism is one example.
(I happen to think atheism/secular humanism is also an example of this)

However, are we agreed that Christianity is a religion which could be thoroughly, effectively and conclusively debunked through one very simple means: providing the bones of the dead Jesus.

Yes?

Yet no one, in 2000 years, has ever been able to do this.

Yes?

How was it that the Jews/Romans/Secular Humanists of ancient Palestine debunked the resurrection?
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  #153  
Old Apr 27, '17, 1:09 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by KnowtheSilence View Post
Is that really how you read what I wrote? Try this instead :

1. If a historical document has questionable authorship and contains historical implausibilities and apparent myths, the contents of that document should be viewed with suspicion.
2. The Gospels are historical documents with questionable authorship that contain historical implausibilities and apparent myths.

3.Therefore the contents of the Gospels should be viewed with suspicion.


You are, of course, free to disagree with either premise, but that is not a circular argument.
You are begging the question, KtS.

You view the gospels with suspicion because you already have the preconceived idea that it contains myth.

Also, just to provide some confirmation of your consistency, do you doubt the authorship of all ancient documents, too? Or just the Christian ones.
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  #154  
Old Apr 27, '17, 1:12 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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According to Pseudo-Hyppolytus, five of the twelve apostles were not martyred but died natural deaths (John, Matthew, Jude, Simon, and Matthias).
Oh! Well, here's a nice example of what I was just asking for above.

Can you provide some proof of his authorship? And also proof that this is not a myth?

Why do you apparently believe in the authorship of this text (also, can you provide a source for this text? Thanks) but doubt the authorship of any of the NT documents?
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  #155  
Old Apr 27, '17, 1:14 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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According to Pseudo-Hyppolytus, five of the twelve apostles were not martyred but died natural deaths (John, Matthew, Jude, Simon, and Matthias).
Bartholomew was supposedly either beaten and drowned, or beaten and beheaded, or skinned alive and crucified.
Matthias supposedly either died a natural death, was stoned and beheaded in Jerusalem, or was crucified in Ethiopia.
Simon the zealot was supposedly either sawn in half in Persia, crucified in Samaria, or martyred in Georgia, or died a natural death.
Also, when you mentioned contradictions, were you referring to contradictions in the gospels or in other historical texts?
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  #156  
Old Apr 27, '17, 5:26 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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You seem to be starting from the idea that no one proclaimed the resurrection until 30 years after the crucifixion.
No, Iím not saying that. Iím still only talking about the empty tomb here.

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Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Source for this in bold, please.
Do you think itís more likely that the most common reaction would be for people to go try and find the corpse?
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  #157  
Old Apr 27, '17, 5:26 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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This is true--people will continue to believe contrary to facts. Mormonism is one example.
(I happen to think atheism/secular humanism is also an example of this)

However, are we agreed that Christianity is a religion which could be thoroughly, effectively and conclusively debunked through one very simple means: providing the bones of the dead Jesus.

Yes?

Yet no one, in 2000 years, has ever been able to do this.

Yes?

How was it that the Jews/Romans/Secular Humanists of ancient Palestine debunked the resurrection?
Iím not sure youíre understanding my point in bringing up the Mormons. Iím pointing out that the fact that a religion can be easily debunked does not mean that it will not still gain converts. Even if someone did manage to identify Jesusí remains Ė and Iím not sure that they could have, or that anyone would be motivated to bother Ė there could still be converts because there would have been people who wouldnít have bothered to check.
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  #158  
Old Apr 27, '17, 5:27 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
You are begging the question, KtS.

You view the gospels with suspicion because you already have the preconceived idea that it contains myth.
Do you think itís possible to identify a myth?

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Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Also, just to provide some confirmation of your consistency, do you doubt the authorship of all ancient documents, too? Or just the Christian ones.
I think thereís a degree of uncertainty with all ancient documents, so I maintain some level of skepticism in the sense that it wouldnít be earth-shattering to me if I found out that scholars doubted this or that. With some things, like the writings of Seneca, I have very little doubt. With something like Homer, much more.
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  #159  
Old Apr 27, '17, 5:30 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Oh! Well, here's a nice example of what I was just asking for above.

Can you provide some proof of his authorship? And also proof that this is not a myth?
No. I have no clue who wrote it or if itís reliable. In fact, I really doubt that it is. But that's not the point. Itís an account of the alleged fates of the apostles, and itís one that contradicts many other accounts, and thatís what you asked for examples of.

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(also, can you provide a source for this text? Thanks)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0524.htm
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  #160  
Old Apr 27, '17, 5:31 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Also, when you mentioned contradictions, were you referring to contradictions in the gospels or in other historical texts?
The Gospels donít contain any accounts of the alleged martyrdoms of any of the apostles, so Iím talking about other historical texts.
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  #161  
Old Apr 27, '17, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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No. I have no clue who wrote it or if itís reliable. In fact, I really doubt that it is.
Wait...what????

*spits out her drink, spraying liquid all over her computer screen*

If you can't even take your source seriously, why should I?

I am free to summarily dismiss your post referencing Hippolytus, as you don't even believe your very own reference.

It's as if I've asked you, "Do you know the way to San Jose?"
You respond, "Why, yes, I most certainly do! Mrs. Chan told me to take Highway 44, so that's what you should do!"
Me: "Who's Mrs. Chan and does she know the way to San Jose?"
You: "I have no idea. I don't even really think she knows where California is".

I think it would be safe to say that we could have redacted all the above to this:
Me: Do you know the way to San Jose?
You: No.

The exact OPPOSITE of your original position, yeah?
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  #162  
Old Apr 28, '17, 6:06 am
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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If you can't even take your source seriously, why should I?
You shouldn't. That's the point. The sources we have for the martyrdoms of the apostles with maybe a few exceptions are not reliable. Let's recap this thread of the conversation and see if that help clarify this for you:

-you wanted to know the "minimal facts" that Gary Habermas uses to argue for the resurrection
-I provided a list which included the ďfactĒ that the twelve apostlesí lives were transformed by their belief in the resurrection and were willing to die for it. I indicated I doubled this.
-you asked if it was possible that the accounts of the early Christians being martyred without recasting were not actual events.
-I interpreted your saying ďearly Christiansď was referring only to the apostles since the early Christians in general were not relevant to the point we were discussing and said that, yes, itís possible that these were not actual events. I pointed out that most of the accounts are late and there are several contradictions among the accounts.
-you asked for a list of contradictions
-I provided one, which included a reference to Pseudo-Hyppolytus.

Now you seem to be surprised and confused that I donít think Pseudo-Hyppolytus is a reliable source, even though I never said that it was, nor did my bringing it up require me to think that it was reliable. I donít think itís any more or any less reliable than a lot of the other sources of these stories.
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  #163  
Old Apr 28, '17, 8:01 am
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by KnowtheSilence View Post
You shouldn't. That's the point. The sources we have for the martyrdoms of the apostles with maybe a few exceptions are not reliable. Let's recap this thread of the conversation and see if that help clarify this for you:

-you wanted to know the "minimal facts" that Gary Habermas uses to argue for the resurrection
-I provided a list which included the ďfactĒ that the twelve apostlesí lives were transformed by their belief in the resurrection and were willing to die for it. I indicated I doubled this.
-you asked if it was possible that the accounts of the early Christians being martyred without recasting were not actual events.
-I interpreted your saying ďearly Christiansď was referring only to the apostles since the early Christians in general were not relevant to the point we were discussing and said that, yes, itís possible that these were not actual events. I pointed out that most of the accounts are late and there are several contradictions among the accounts.
-you asked for a list of contradictions
-I provided one, which included a reference to Pseudo-Hyppolytus.

Now you seem to be surprised and confused that I donít think Pseudo-Hyppolytus is a reliable source, even though I never said that it was, nor did my bringing it up require me to think that it was reliable. I donít think itís any more or any less reliable than a lot of the other sources of these stories.
I have been following the ongoing dialogue between you and PR. So, if I am clear about your position, it is that ALL sources, both pro and con Jesus' resurrection and the apostles' reaction to it, have to be taken skeptically, with large grains of salt, and because of this, it is not possible to say for certain whether the event did happen or not. Further, due to the potential errors and contradictions in reconstructing the ancient events, it is more rational to doubt the events than believe in them. Finally, the same line of reasoning would no doubt apply to several other biblical "events," as well as non-biblical historical occurrences. Is this your view?
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  #164  
Old Apr 28, '17, 9:57 am
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

Meltzerboy, thank you for being charitable and trying to understand what Iím really saying. Youíre very close to right, but Iím going to nitpick a few things just to add some nuance in case you or someone else wants to probe any of these points further.

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So, if I am clear about your position, it is that ALL sources, both pro and con Jesus' resurrection and the apostles' reaction to it, have to be taken skeptically, with large grains of salt, and because of this, it is not possible to say for certain whether the event did happen or not.
Correct up until the very last point. I donít want to declare that we canít say for certain (meaning certain in a historical sense, which is still somewhat uncertain) whether an event surrounding Jesusí resurrection, etc., actually happened or not. I wonít say that in principle this stuff canít be ďprovedĒ historically. Also, Iím no expert and canít claim to even have looked at all the evidence we may already have, so itís entirely possible that there actually is enough evidence to confirm these events and I just havenít seen it yet. But I will say that the evidence Iíve seen so far has been uncertain and not particularly compelling; that could be that because most of what Iíve read and seen has come from more of a ďpopular apologeticsď level and that will change when I get into more scholarly stuff.

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Further, due to the potential errors and contradictions in reconstructing the ancient events, it is more rational to doubt the events than believe in them.
If by ďthe ancient eventsĒ weíre still talking about the resurrection, deaths of the apostles, etc., then yes.
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Finally, the same line of reasoning would no doubt apply to several other biblical "events," as well as non-biblical historical occurrences. Is this your view?
Yes. Obviously, the more evidence we have, the more confident we can be, but history doesnít always leave us with very much.
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  #165  
Old Apr 29, '17, 9:13 am
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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I have been following the ongoing dialogue between you and PR. So, if I am clear about your position, it is that ALL sources, both pro and con Jesus' resurrection and the apostles' reaction to it, have to be taken skeptically, with large grains of salt, and because of this, it is not possible to say for certain whether the event did happen or not. Further, due to the potential errors and contradictions in reconstructing the ancient events, it is more rational to doubt the events than believe in them. Finally, the same line of reasoning would no doubt apply to several other biblical "events," as well as non-biblical historical occurrences. Is this your view?
I don't disagree with this.

Where my objection lies with KtS, and all others who claim to have a (justified) skepticism of the gospels, is that this skepticism has a different degree for all things religious, as compared to other events of antiquity.

Would that this skepticism was consistent in its cynicism.
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