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  #1  
Old Jun 5, '15, 1:44 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default If God became man....

If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

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  #2  
Old Jun 5, '15, 6:16 am
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Neofight Neofight is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

.
God didn't have to become man; He chose to become man, and humanity did not "kill" God.

When God became man, the Word became flesh, but still retained His divinity.

Therefore, humanity, while responsible for taking the human life of the very human, Jesus, the divine (God) certainly was not killed, as proven by the resurrection and ascension.

Peace and all good!
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  #3  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:06 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
God didn't have to become man; He chose to become man, and humanity did not "kill" God.

When God became man, the Word became flesh, but still retained His divinity.

Therefore, humanity, while responsible for taking the human life of the very human, Jesus, the divine (God) certainly was not killed, as proven by the resurrection and ascension.

Peace and all good!
As you know, Neofight, Jesus wasn't just "very human" but also God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is "killing God."

The logic is the same as saying Mary is not jus the Mother of the "very human" Jesus, but of God. As Jesus is God anything done to Jesus is done to God, including giving birth to Him and killing Him.
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  #4  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:01 am
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Neofight Neofight is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
As you know, Neofight, Jesus wasn't just "very human" but also God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is "killing God."

The logic is the same as saying Mary is not jus the Mother of the "very human" Jesus, but of God. As Jesus is God anything done to Jesus is done to God, including giving birth to Him and killing Him.
You misunderstood. By "very", I did not mean "just", I meant "really" or "completely"...although there is a risk that if you take this literally as you did my previous response, you will be quick to retort that He was human in all ways except he was free of sin....regardless....He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son.

Your confusion seems to be you are wrestling eith, as many of do, the concept of the God head and the Holy Trinity , as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity. Two persons who are not human, and one (God the Son) who became human, and thus unlike the other two persons (Father and Holy Spirit) was both Human and divine.

Again, divinity cannot be killed, so Father and Holy Spirit cannot be killed, nor can the divinity of the Son, but the human body of the Son could be and was killed.

More perplexing about your contention is that the human Jesus was not killed, is that then His body did not rise on the third day, and you have inadvertently dismissed the theology of the Resurrection (His resurrection and ours).

Peace and all good!
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  #5  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:14 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
You misunderstood. By "very", I did not mean "just", I meant "really" or "completely"...although there is a risk that if you take this literally as you did my previous response, you will be quick to retort that He was human in all ways except he was free of sin....regardless....He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son.

Your confusion seems to be you are wrestling eith, as many of do, the concept of the God head and the Holy Trinity , as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity. Two persons who are not human, and one (God the Son) who became human, and thus unlike the other two persons (Father and Holy Spirit) was both Human and divine.

Again, divinity cannot be killed, so Father and Holy Spirit cannot be killed, nor can the divinity of the Son, but the human body of the Son could be and was killed.

More perplexing about your contention is that the human Jesus was not killed, is that then His body did not rise on the third day, and you have inadvertently dismissed the theology of the Resurrection (His resurrection and ours).

Peace and all good!
Sorry, this is still heretical,

"He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son."

There isn't two Jesuses, one Divine and one Human, but one Person - both fully human and fully Divine. Anything done to Jesus is, ipso facto, done to God. Perhaps, you are attempting to say that God the Father and God the HS were not killed (which is, of course, correct), but God was killed, in the fully Divine Person of Jesus Christ.

But you don't have to take my word for it, the CCC teaches,

This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience. (614)

If the CCC isn't enough, we also have the Synodal Epistle of Cyril which declares,

"If any man does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh and was crucified in the flesh, let him be anathema."

As you alluded to, the Trinity is a tough concept to get one's mind around. Perhaps you are trying to say that the Divine Person, God the Son, died not in His Divine Nature, but through His Human Nature. That would be theologically sound (in fact it is impossible for God to die through His impassible Divine Nature), but will still lead to the conclusion I drew above, God died.

Last edited by PietroPaolo; Jun 5, '15 at 8:26 am.
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  #6  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:38 am
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
Sorry, this is still heretical,

.

Not only is this strong, but its just plain WRONG.

I'll leave it go after this, because I fear we may be beating a dead horse.

If there was any credence to you contention, the entire Church is in error at the Mass when we proclaim:

"Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again!"

Peace and all good!
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  #7  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:41 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
Not only is this strong, but its just plain WRONG.

I'll leave it go after this, because I fear we may be beating a dead horse.

If there was any credence to you contention, the entire Church is in error at the Mass when we proclaim:

"Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again!"

Peace and all good!
That makes absolutely no sense at all. Christ is God, thus when we (used to, before the new translation) proclaim:

"Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again!" It means nothing less than:

"God has died, God had risen, God will come again!" and is in perfect agreement with everything I said.

If that's the best you've got, perhaps leaving this discussion is the best option. I'd rather see you actually engage the many points (and evidence from the CCC and the Synodal Epistle) which I provided, but if you can do nothing more than claim you're right, moving on is better.
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  #8  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:34 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
You misunderstood. By "very", I did not mean "just", I meant "really" or "completely"...although there is a risk that if you take this literally as you did my previous response, you will be quick to retort that He was human in all ways except he was free of sin....regardless....He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son.

Your confusion seems to be you are wrestling eith, as many of do, the concept of the God head and the Holy Trinity , as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity. Two persons who are not human, and one (God the Son) who became human, and thus unlike the other two persons (Father and Holy Spirit) was both Human and divine.

Again, divinity cannot be killed, so Father and Holy Spirit cannot be killed, nor can the divinity of the Son, but the human body of the Son could be and was killed.

More perplexing about your contention is that the human Jesus was not killed, is that then His body did not rise on the third day, and you have inadvertently dismissed the theology of the Resurrection (His resurrection and ours).

Peace and all good!
For the record, I never made this "more perplexing... contention". That was another poster.
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  #9  
Old Jun 12, '15, 11:15 am
Darryl Revok Darryl Revok is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

I'm having trouble understanding the magnitude of the sacrifice.

If you read anything about the ancient practice of crucifixion, it often took days for the victim to perish. Whereas the Crucifixion was over in a matter of hours, and Jesus was ultimately the one who decided when to die. As suffering goes, a single day of misery seems underwhelming, especially considering that he rose from the dead and went to heaven, and also considering the lifetimes of misery and suffering that were the norm in the world at the time.
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  #10  
Old Jun 10, '15, 2:25 am
hasantas hasantas is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
God didn't have to become man; He chose to become man, and humanity did not "kill" God.

When God became man, the Word became flesh, but still retained His divinity.

Therefore, humanity, while responsible for taking the human life of the very human, Jesus, the divine (God) certainly was not killed, as proven by the resurrection and ascension.

Peace and all good!
I cannot exactly understand what that means "God became man"!

God does not become man but if He did so,

Why did He do such thing! Do not God can see and feel what human nature feel and suffer without being human? So do you bound God's attributes?

If God die and suffer then how can it be my creator? And how can he save me but he cannot save Himself?

To forgive me so God kill Himself ... That does not sound rational.

God is eternal and infinite. If God became man and bound to matter and time so how it can be reconcile with God's eternal essence?

Death is the departing soul from body. So if God became man and died later so God had to settle in body. If God incarnated in the body so God have to be bound to physical laws which conflicts with eternal attributes!
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  #11  
Old Jun 10, '15, 4:08 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
I cannot exactly understand what that means "God became man"!

God does not become man but if He did so,

Why did He do such thing! Do not God can see and feel what human nature feel and suffer without being human? So do you bound God's attributes?
It wasn't for His sake-it's for ours, so that we know, in no uncertain terms , that God knows and cares about who we are, that He isn't beneath living as He created us to live, including the suffering that we all inevitably endure to one degree or another.
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If God die and suffer then how can it be my creator? And how can he save me but he cannot save Himself?
He did save Himself-that's the point-He just came down and showed us-proved to us-eternal life and the pathway there. We follow Him through death unto life.
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To forgive me so God kill Himself ... That does not sound rational.
To show me that He already forgives -to show me how much He loves- that He would even suffer and die an agonizing death if that's what it takes to show me that.
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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
God is eternal and infinite. If God became man and bound to matter and time so how it can be reconcile with God's eternal essence?

Death is the departing soul from body. So if God became man and died later so God had to settle in body. If God incarnated in the body so God have to be bound to physical laws which conflicts with eternal attributes!
Nothing's impossible for God. He can certainly stoop lower; He can certainly enter into His own creation, the work of His hands, if He desires. God sanctified His creation, in a way, by becoming part of it, to show just how initmately connected to it all that He is.
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  #12  
Old Jun 12, '15, 6:08 am
hasantas hasantas is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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It wasn't for His sake-it's for ours, so that we know, in no uncertain terms , that God knows and cares about who we are, that He isn't beneath living as He created us to live, including the suffering that we all inevitably endure to one degree or another.

He did save Himself-that's the point-He just came down and showed us-proved to us-eternal life and the pathway there. We follow Him through death unto life.

To show me that He already forgives -to show me how much He loves- that He would even suffer and die an agonizing death if that's what it takes to show me that.

Nothing's impossible for God. He can certainly stoop lower; He can certainly enter into His own creation, the work of His hands, if He desires. God sanctified His creation, in a way, by becoming part of it, to show just how initmately connected to it all that He is.
If God can suffer so God can die or God can be deaf or God can be blind or God can be powerless etc .. But those do not sound as eternal attributes?

God is all mercifull so God wish to save us. But being a man is not the right way. If God suffer and do that work for human so what will human earn? Do not human have to struggle to deserve something?
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  #13  
Old Jun 13, '15, 10:30 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
If God can suffer so God can die or God can be deaf or God can be blind or God can be powerless etc .. But those do not sound as eternal attributes?
God can do whatever He wants-He doesn't dance to our tune. He can allow human ignorance and sin to hate Him and to express that hatred in real-time, by real acts-if He wants. Then we learn what sin is really all about, if we're willing to look. Sin is ultimately rebellion against and hatred of God, Who is so good, trustworthy, kind, and loving that he would even suffer humiliation, pain, and death in order to prove that love to us, to prove what's truly valuable and good and worth living and dying for in this existence, to help us choose rightly, without force, to love as He does. That's how starkly contrasted the real God is with the God we often conceive of.
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God is all mercifull so God wish to save us. But being a man is not the right way. If God suffer and do that work for human so what will human earn? Do not human have to struggle to deserve something?
He didn't remove our responsibility or obligation for obedience. He forgives, and then beckons us to come His way, and follow Him in the path of truth and righteousness, a path that He, himself, trod before us to demonstrate the way. And He promises to help us to achieve that goal as well. But its our choice in how we live. The Church teaches that it's a very hard struggle, this path, but a good one as we persevere on it.
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  #14  
Old Jun 20, '15, 5:32 am
hasantas hasantas is offline
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=fhansen;13045678]God can do whatever He wants-He doesn't dance to our tune. He can allow human ignorance and sin to hate Him and to express that hatred in real-time, by real acts-if He wants. Then we learn what sin is really all about, if we're willing to look. Sin is ultimately rebellion against and hatred of God, Who is so good, trustworthy, kind, and loving that he would even suffer humiliation, pain, and death in order to prove that love to us, to prove what's truly valuable and good and worth living and dying for in this existence, to help us choose rightly, without force, to love as He does. That's how starkly contrasted the real God is with the God we often conceive of.
My point is that if God suffer and die so how could He remain a God? Suffering and death is humanely but not divine? The issue is not if God wish or not but is it possible for God to have humane attributes or not? If God is kind of a man then all human is God!

Quote:
He didn't remove our responsibility or obligation for obedience. He forgives, and then beckons us to come His way, and follow Him in the path of truth and righteousness, a path that He, himself, trod before us to demonstrate the way. And He promises to help us to achieve that goal as well. But its our choice in how we live. The Church teaches that it's a very hard struggle, this path, but a good one as we persevere on it.
God forgives but for being forgiven we human should pay but not God! Isn't that sound weird if obligor do not pay but demander do?
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Old Jun 20, '15, 5:44 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
My point is that if God suffer and die so how could He remain a God? Suffering and death is humanely but not divine? The issue is not if God wish or not but is it possible for God to have humane attributes or not? If God is kind of a man then all human is God!
God already has human attributes in one sense, because humans are made in His image-we're simply inferior In every way. And He can certainly lower Himself, if He wills, to our level, for His purposes.
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God forgives but for being forgiven we human should pay but not God! Isn't that sound weird if obligor do not pay but demander do?
That's love. And it still comes with an obligation; we must now conform to His will- we must become just, as He personally showed us how to be, and He helps us even in this, as He, alone, is the very source of man's justice, our being a handiwork of His to begin with.
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