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  #16  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:38 am
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Neofight Neofight is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
Sorry, this is still heretical,

.

Not only is this strong, but its just plain WRONG.

I'll leave it go after this, because I fear we may be beating a dead horse.

If there was any credence to you contention, the entire Church is in error at the Mass when we proclaim:

"Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again!"

Peace and all good!
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  #17  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:41 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
Not only is this strong, but its just plain WRONG.

I'll leave it go after this, because I fear we may be beating a dead horse.

If there was any credence to you contention, the entire Church is in error at the Mass when we proclaim:

"Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again!"

Peace and all good!
That makes absolutely no sense at all. Christ is God, thus when we (used to, before the new translation) proclaim:

"Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again!" It means nothing less than:

"God has died, God had risen, God will come again!" and is in perfect agreement with everything I said.

If that's the best you've got, perhaps leaving this discussion is the best option. I'd rather see you actually engage the many points (and evidence from the CCC and the Synodal Epistle) which I provided, but if you can do nothing more than claim you're right, moving on is better.
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  #18  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:53 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
No, that doesn't follow. God died, in the Second Person of the Trinity, through His human nature, but not in His Divine Nature. God the Father and God the HS, didn't die at all, and, even the dead, in His Human Nature, God the Son still existed (in fact He descended into hell, then rose again).
I am unable to understand how you are separating the human and divine nature of Jesus here and yet in a post further up you say that they cannot be separated.

"There isn't two Jesuses, one Divine and one Human, but one Person - both fully human and fully Divine. "

This has confused me dear friend.....

.
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  #19  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:57 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
Jesus is eternal in His divine nature, but was mortal in His human nature (though Resurrected His human nature is now immortal). He suffered and died through His human nature, but it was still God (in the Divine Person of the Son) who suffered and died. In fact, being the perfect man, Jesus would have suffered immeasurably more than you or I if we underwent the same torture.
Wasn't the human nature of Jesus fully Divine also? He was fully human and fully Divine correct?

So when His human nature was killed, His Divine nature was also killed, otherwise He was not fully either of the natures......

Was Jesus the PERSON killed?

.
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  #20  
Old Jun 5, '15, 9:07 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
I am unable to understand how you are separating the human and divine nature of Jesus here and yet in a post further up you say that they cannot be separated.

"There isn't two Jesuses, one Divine and one Human, but one Person - both fully human and fully Divine. "

This has confused me dear friend.....

.
Okay. This is complicated, but...

In God there are three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each Person is fully God (not just a part of God), each fully posses the Godhead. Each has the full Divine Nature.

At the Incarnation, the Second Person (God the Son) of the Trinity took on a Human Nature. Thus God the Son has two-natures in one person (a human nature and a Divine nature). Through His Divine Nature, God the Son can do all the things possible for God (create, control the weather, rise again, heal people). Through His Human Nature, God the Son can do all the things possible for a man (suffer, die, get hungry, get tired, etc). But it is one person, a Divine Person, who is doing all these things. Thus God (in the Person of the Son) died on the Cross through His Human Nature.

So in God we have - Three Person, One Nature

And in Christ we have - One Person, Two Natures (human and divine).

That there is only one Person - Christ - and that people, not natures, do things (like suffer and die) means that God was born of Mary (see the Council of Ephesus) and that God died on the Cross.

Does that help?
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  #21  
Old Jun 5, '15, 9:11 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Wasn't the human nature of Jesus fully Divine also? He was fully human and fully Divine correct?
No, that would be impossible. A nature can't be human and divine, but a person can have more than one nature.

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
So when His human nature was killed, His Divine nature was also killed, otherwise He was not fully either of the natures......
No, His Divine nature is impassible, it can't suffer, and immortal, it can't die. Jesus could suffer and die b/c He took on a nature that made those things possible - a human nature.

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Was Jesus the PERSON killed?

.
Yes, Jesus (the Divine Person) was killed. Persons can be killed, natures can't. When Jesus was killed, because Jesus = God, God was killed.
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  #22  
Old Jun 5, '15, 9:11 am
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
]
. . . Jesus was . . . . God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is "killing God."
Killing means the death of the physical body. So, since Jesus is God and He was killed in the flesh, yes that would be Deicide.
Remember, even as with homicide, the body is killed since the spirit is eternal.
So if Jesus is eternal, how is his physical death a sacrifice?
.
No, killing anyone only kills the body. You cannot kill the soul of even an ordinary human being. The sacrifice only consists in killing the body, the soul cannot be killed.
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  #23  
Old Jun 5, '15, 9:18 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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No, killing anyone only kills the body. You cannot kill the soul of even an ordinary human being. The sacrifice only consists in killing the body, the soul cannot be killed.
Are you suggesting that no one can be killed, that murder doesn't exist, because no one can kill someone's soul? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you...
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  #24  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:18 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
Are you suggesting that no one can be killed, that murder doesn't exist, because no one can kill someone's soul? .
No, I was answering the posts and assertions before. Read through the thread and you'll understand.
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  #25  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:36 pm
Usagi Usagi is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
No, I was answering the posts and assertions before. Read through the thread and you'll understand.
If I may try to clarify, Ignatius....

What Ignatius is saying is that none of us entirely cease to exist upon death. The body dies, but the soul lives on and cannot be killed. That happens even when I, a mere human, die.

So it does not detract from Christ's sacrifice that God the Son did not literally cease to exist for three days. His human soul (inextricably united to His divine Person) also did not cease to exist, just as mine or yours will not. But they were violently separated from His body, which is what "death" means to Christians and most anyone else who believes in some kind of spiritual survival after death.

Usagi
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  #26  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:47 pm
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

.....



So given all this, and Jesus KNOWING that He lives on, and ESPECIALLY knowing that even His body will not be destroyed (since it was resurrected) what exactly is the sacrifice here?

It's like me saying that you can go aead and chop off my arm, "I will sacrifice it for you" knowing full well that I will grow another one tomorrow.

.
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  #27  
Old Jun 6, '15, 10:37 am
Bahman Bahman is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
No, that doesn't follow. God died, in the Second Person of the Trinity, through His human nature, but not in His Divine Nature. God the Father and God the HS, didn't die at all, and, even the dead, in His Human Nature, God the Son still existed (in fact He descended into hell, then rose again).
So what happened for trinity when a person dies?
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  #28  
Old Jun 6, '15, 12:38 pm
openmind77 openmind77 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
.....



So given all this, and Jesus KNOWING that He lives on, and ESPECIALLY knowing that even His body will not be destroyed (since it was resurrected) what exactly is the sacrifice here?

It's like me saying that you can go aead and chop off my arm, "I will sacrifice it for you" knowing full well that I will grow another one tomorrow.

.
The sacrifice is not in the death since he already knew he was going to be resurrected.

The sacrifice is in the suffering, the torture, the humiliation he went through both before the crucifixion and while dying on the cross.

Jesus, the human, did actually feel the pain and suffering during this process.
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  #29  
Old Jun 6, '15, 5:52 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Usagi View Post
If I may try to clarify, Ignatius....

What Ignatius is saying is that none of us entirely cease to exist upon death. The body dies, but the soul lives on and cannot be killed. That happens even when I, a mere human, die.

So it does not detract from Christ's sacrifice that God the Son did not literally cease to exist for three days. His human soul (inextricably united to His divine Person) also did not cease to exist, just as mine or yours will not. But they were violently separated from His body, which is what "death" means to Christians and most anyone else who believes in some kind of spiritual survival after death.

Usagi
Thank you sir. Yes, that's precisely it. If I give my life it is truly a sacrifice, because my life is precious to me. The Old Testament sacrifices where sacrifices because the one making the sacrifice of something of value, be it grain, libation, or whatever he was giving up. Even if he were not dying, he was still making a sacrifice. It is an even greater sacrifice to give up ones bodily life.
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Dirige Domine Deus meus, viam meam in conspectu tuo.
http://catholictruth.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-jBa...layer_embedded
http://blackieschurchmilitant-apocalypsis.blogspot.com/
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  #30  
Old Jun 6, '15, 6:59 pm
Pallas Athene Pallas Athene is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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It is an even greater sacrifice to give up ones bodily life.
What about giving up one's eternal bliss to help someone else to get into heaven? Since everyone must die (physically) it does not seem to be such a great sacrifice. Now, giving up the eternal happiness in heaven... that would be a tremendous sacrifice. Don't you agree?
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