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  #31  
Old Jun 6, '15, 8:01 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
What about giving up one's eternal bliss to help someone else to get into heaven?
I think this is an invalid question. No one gives up eternal bliss to help another get into heaven. If fact, doing so, assists one's achieving eternal bliss, assuming that eternal bliss = heaven.
Quote:
Since everyone must die (physically) it does not seem to be such a great sacrifice. Now, giving up the eternal happiness in heaven... that would be a tremendous sacrifice. Don't you agree?
No I don't agree. These statements ignore the reality of spiritual death.
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  #32  
Old Jun 7, '15, 6:02 am
Pallas Athene Pallas Athene is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by davidv View Post
I think this is an invalid question. No one gives up eternal bliss to help another get into heaven. If fact, doing so, assists one's achieving eternal bliss, assuming that eternal bliss = heaven.
The conquistadores took away the newborns from the native people, baptized them, and immediately afterwards, killed them. By baptizing them they washed away the "stigma" of the original sin, and by killing them they ensured that they could not commit any sins. The result, they died in the state of grace, and as such they were immediately admitted into heaven. At least that is what the church teaches. So the conquistadores (all devout Catholics!) acted in the best interest of those children, which is the highest form of love.

But what about the price? They committed a murder, and as such they gave up the possibility to get into heaven. If that is the case then they gave up much more than this life... they gave up their eternal life in heaven - therefore they deserve the ultimate reward... to be admitted into heaven. "There is no greater love..."

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Originally Posted by davidv View Post
No I don't agree. These statements ignore the reality of spiritual death.
Don't play with words. Death is the cessation of life. "Spiritual" death is a meaningless combination of words.
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  #33  
Old Jun 7, '15, 2:47 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

.
In a sense, yes. The light that came into the world was God, that's Who Jesus revealed, because that's Who Jesus is- and man preferred darkness.
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  #34  
Old Jun 7, '15, 7:22 pm
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
In a sense, yes. The light that came into the world was God, that's Who Jesus revealed, because that's Who Jesus is- and man preferred darkness.

Can you please elaborate your understanding here fhansen ?

Did a few individuals actually kill God? Can a creation kill its Creator?

.
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  #35  
Old Jun 7, '15, 7:24 pm
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by openmind77 View Post
The sacrifice is not in the death since he already knew he was going to be resurrected.

The sacrifice is in the suffering, the torture, the humiliation he went through both before the crucifixion and while dying on the cross.

Jesus, the human, did actually feel the pain and suffering during this process.
I may be incorrect but Christian thinking is very much about the sacrifice being in the death. The Cross is revered for a reason, not the whip and torture implements.

.
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  #36  
Old Jun 7, '15, 7:39 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
Can you please elaborate your understanding here fhansen ?

Did a few individuals actually kill God? Can a creation kill its Creator?

.
Sure. In the person of Jesus Christ God experienced suffering and physical death, as we all will.
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  #37  
Old Jun 7, '15, 7:57 pm
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
Sure. In the person of Jesus Christ God experienced suffering and physical death, as we all will.

I'm still a touch confused dear friend. God "experienced" suffering and death, but did He "actually" die? As in, was God in His whole entirety killed?

.
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  #38  
Old Jun 7, '15, 8:15 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
I'm still a touch confused dear friend. God "experienced" suffering and death, but did He "actually" die? As in, was God in His whole entirety killed?

.
No more than yours or mine will be at death. God possesses eternal existence by nature. We possess it as a gift from Him.
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  #39  
Old Jun 7, '15, 9:23 pm
Spelf Spelf is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

I would say the sacrifice could be understood - whether or not he knew that he would overcome it (which of course he did) - as the creator entering creation and suffering the greatest of humiliations and in violent death, and in so-doing reconciled humanity and the world to himself. His own death and his own blood being spilled worked to satisfy by filling many of the mechanisms he had previously showed the Jewish people.

I think there's a mixup here with your conceptualization of death. God died, as he was Jesus in the flesh and Jesus died. However, "death" is not the end of being, and neither human nor God is fully their physical form. If I were to die, my spirit (that is, my soul) would not be destroyed or cease to be. In the same way (though somewhat more complicated, of course), God died on the cross but God did not cease to be any more than you or I cease to be when we die.
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  #40  
Old Jun 8, '15, 7:30 am
Usagi Usagi is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
I'm still a touch confused dear friend. God "experienced" suffering and death, but did He "actually" die? As in, was God in His whole entirety killed?

.
What do you mean by "die" and "killed" here?

For humans, death means "soul separated from body." That did happen in the case of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so it is correct to say that God died/was killed. As far as we know, that is the only way that God could die, since outside of the Incarnation He possessed neither body nor human soul.

If you mean "Did the entire Trinity (or even just the Son) cease to exist for a time," then no, that did not happen. But in Christian belief, we humans don't completely cease to exist upon death either, so it seems odd to say that God didn't really die unless something happened to Him that never even happens to us when we die.

It's sort of like the argument over Mary as "Mother of God." Of course Mary is not the source of God's existence -- quite the other way around, in fact. But He (as Jesus) was conceived in her body, carried there for the usual term, and born from her. So it is entirely correct to say that God was born and has a human mother, even though His existence did not begin with her. Likewise, it is correct to say that God died, just as we do, even though that did not mean the cessation of His existence even temporarily.

Usagi
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  #41  
Old Jun 8, '15, 7:45 am
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
I may be incorrect but Christian thinking is very much about the sacrifice
.
I think you are misunderstanding what a sacrifice is. The Old Testament sacrifices where sacrifices because the one making the sacrifice of giving something of value, be it grain, libation, or whatever he was giving up. Even if he were not dying, he was still making a sacrifice. It is an even greater sacrifice to give up ones bodily life. Those who sacrifice themselves in war by jumping on a grenade give up their lives, even though their soul lives on. It is the act of giving something of value that is the sacrifice. What more valuable thing do you have than your earthly life? Even though your soul is still alive, you have given up the most valuable thing you have to give.
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  #42  
Old Jun 8, '15, 9:17 am
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
The conquistadores took away the newborns from the native people, baptized them, and immediately afterwards, killed them. By baptizing them they washed away the "stigma" of the original sin, and by killing them they ensured that they could not commit any sins. The result, they died in the state of grace, and as such they were immediately admitted into heaven. At least that is what the church teaches. So the conquistadores (all devout Catholics!) acted in the best interest of those children, which is the highest form of love.

But what about the price? They committed a murder, and as such they gave up the possibility to get into heaven. If that is the case then they gave up much more than this life... they gave up their eternal life in heaven - therefore they deserve the ultimate reward... to be admitted into heaven. "There is no greater love..."


Don't play with words.
I did not. Did you?
Quote:
Death is the cessation of life.
Agreed as long as there is an acknowledge of spiritual life.
Quote:
"Spiritual" death is a meaningless combination of words.
Base on what exactly?
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  #43  
Old Jun 9, '15, 10:07 am
Pallas Athene Pallas Athene is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by davidv View Post
Agreed as long as there is an acknowledge of spiritual life.
"Spiritual life" is undefined. What is it?

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Originally Posted by davidv View Post
Base on what exactly?
Based upon the assumption that the soul or spirit is something that cannot be killed. As such the phrase "spiritual death" is a logical impossibility.
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  #44  
Old Jun 9, '15, 11:59 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
"Spiritual life" is undefined. What is it?


Based upon the assumption that the soul or spirit is something that cannot be killed. As such the phrase "spiritual death" is a logical impossibility.
"Spiritual death", like physical death, does not equate to non-existence. It means that one is cut off from the knowledge of and conscious relationship with God, a relationship which is vital to our moral integrity, our wholeness and happiness, to peace in ourselves and, subsequently, in our world. The absence of this communion, an absence we may well prefer, is the underlying reason behind the sin we all experience in this world.
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  #45  
Old Jun 9, '15, 8:10 pm
Pallas Athene Pallas Athene is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
"Spiritual death", like physical death, does not equate to non-existence. It means that one is cut off from the knowledge of and conscious relationship with God, a relationship which is vital to our moral integrity, our wholeness and happiness, to peace in ourselves and, subsequently, in our world. The absence of this communion, an absence we may well prefer, is the underlying reason behind the sin we all experience in this world.
Death occurs when the body and the mind (which is the activity of the brain) ceases to function. It is the end of our conscious existence. Our body will decompose, and will be part again of the huge recycling of the chemical reality.

I was looking for God, and did not find him anywhere. We are separated form God in this existence. We cannot see, or hear, or experience God in any way, therefore we are cut off from God - is this what you mean when you speak of "spiritual death"? Besides, I do not need God to find happiness and peace in this world and neither do all the non-Christians. So this "spiritual death" is still a meaningless concept for me.

Of course God (if he exists) could easily remedy this deficiency, and he would be most welcome to do so. He should not be gun-shy about revealing his "love" to us, so we could all experience it - here and now. The usual cop-out that we would be "forced" to know him and thus we would not be "free" to disbelieve him is so dumb, that words are insufficient to describe it. We would be free to reject him, of course.
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