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  #256  
Old May 25, '17, 5:13 am
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rcwitness rcwitness is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by benhur View Post
Hi D,

Yes pretty much, just as you agree with Cc....actually it was ok for them to follow their conscience. Just that consciences were wrong.

Again, it matters not the dynamics of ebionites and P's...for it is mute point compared to the CC dynamic that all others can only be wrong when contending a point of difference with CC
Hey ben, I just wanted to comment on your thoughts here. You don't need to reply, I know I'm jumping in arbitrarily here.

I think the bolded takes a lot of dicernment. That is, the way we understand what "a point of difference" is, and whether it is an official Teaching of the Church, or a matter that some of the members of leadership are falsely believing and/or practicing, is very significant.

The Catholic Church knows and has stated that men on both sides of the reformation division were to be blamed for wrongness.

There is a lawful means for the Church to declare something as "binding" or "infallible" or "official". The Bishop of Rome is able to act singular, or the College of Bishops acting together, and meeting lawful criteria, in order for a decree to have Universal authority.

Outside an official, universal decree by those authorities, anyone can be right and anyone can be wrong. Of course that doesn't mean it's a guessing game, or that there isn't sufficient tradition, or Scripture, or personal conscience available to do the right thing.

Conscience is never "wrong" so to speak. It can be neglected or "seared", but I think the concept of conscience, is that it is the natural knowledge of right and wrong, a gift from being created in God's image and made to be His Children.

So, it's not so simple as to say "... all others can only be wrong...". The fact that the Church states in the Catechism, that men from both sides were wrong, during the reformation, is evidence that it is not so cut and dry as some might think.

What matters, is that we take Church Teaching, and study what it means in light of love and everything else from the faith that we have learned.

A relationship with the Church, is inseparable with our relationship with God. As for "a denomination"... each denomination should be united to the Whole through lawful Holy Communion.
__________________
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
Matthew 22
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  #257  
Old May 25, '17, 5:14 pm
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benhur benhur is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane1966 View Post
Hi Ben,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. The part that I highlighted made me laugh so hard tears were in my eyes. Again thank you.
Hi D

Your welcome, and no extra charge for the medicine that is laughter.
Quote:
Ben, you miss out on the most salient part, the part where you are most inconsistent with two thousand years of Catholic binding. Submission to the Church. For two thousand years, Catholics have always been willing to submit their wills to the Church.
So just being submissive is more salient than the truth on the matter ?
Quote:
If you were to take me, and transport me back in time, to any previous century of the Catholic Church, I would still fit in.
That was my point. That I would fit in on this point for almost anytime in 2000 years.

The bigger question is would those of first church fit in our churches of today ?
Quote:
If we were to do the same with you, nothing would change. No matter what century we put you in, you would not fit in with the Catholic Church, because you do not feel she has that Divine Authority.
Correct, in that I would not have today's mindset that the church/bishop in Rome has infallible divine authority over all the other churches. Incorrect in that I would not fit in, for the church at the beginning did not say St. Peter was infallible, and the "head' of the church (leader yes), over the other apostles, the other churches , even over all councils..
Quote:
If the Assumption and Immaculate Conception are true, why should it matter when the Church defined it?
Because the apostles laid the foundation, left us with a body of faith, and were contemporaries of Mary and her "end', and make no historical mention of it . You really think that 2000 years later we have a better handle on the matter than those who were contemporary to her , and responsible for such binding ?
Quote:
Truth should have no expiration date.
So said error.
Quote:
Can you truly say, you would accept the Assumption, if the Council of Nicaea had defined it?
Yes, for they would have had same criteria on Mary as the other decrees, statements of faith, but they didn't.
Quote:
Let's see how much you really believe what you say. If tomorrow your pastor said that Mary was Assumed into Heaven, just like the Catholic Church teaches, and you must hold it as an article of faith, would you? If you say no, then that pastor can only bind you, when he agrees with your interpretations.
Correct. it is not apostolic.

As I said before, "just following orders" goes just so far, and then it becomes a sin in itself, as much of a sin as disobedience to an apostolic teaching
Quote:
I would welcome logic. I am just asking you to show me why I should believe the Catholic Church when she tells me the Scriptures are inspired and inerrant?
Well, why should early Christians have believed in a Jewish Messiah, and their Writ, when they crucified whom was prophesied ?
Quote:
You always try to use the ORAR argument.
Yes...it fits somewhat.
Quote:
But if she is wrong on the Assumption, the odds that she was also wrong about Scriptures being inerrant, just went up. Any mathematician will tell you that.
Look, any mathematician knows the probability for error increases on eyewitness observation and conclusions the further away you get from the "incident".

Don't think it is coincidence that these two doctrines came on the heels when the church dogmatized the pope's infallibility.
Quote:
See the dilemma you put me in? If I accept that she could be wrong on her latter teachings, I must accept that she also could have been wrong on her earlier teachings.
Perfect. Then one can see that they are not orphaned, and have an unction from the Holy One, that even Christ in you illumines every matter. You will be like Peter when every authority seemingly challenged where he needed to go, and only divine revelation led him properly to his thoughts on the matter, sifting the good ,bad , and ugly of all the input.
Quote:
Please Ben, help me out here. What principled reason should I have to believe the Catholic Church when she says Scripture is inerrant, but disbelieve her on the Assumption?
Well, she dealt with them with different criteria.

Blessings

Last edited by benhur; May 25, '17 at 5:25 pm.
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  #258  
Old May 25, '17, 5:47 pm
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benhur benhur is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

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Originally Posted by Darryl B View Post
This statement could quite well as easy be read into a mirror, but replacing "the CC" with "insert own name".
Hi DB,

Not exactly, unless self says it is over all others, and that infallibly..

But yes, some reformers fell into the same trap.

I think most folk in my camp would say self acknowledges the possibility of another "self" challenging properly, kind of like iron sharpening iron.

I think we also acknowledge another self coming to the same "conclusions", and appreciate each other more, and divine inspiration more, seeing kindred unction /charism, and thereby becoming a stronger "cord'' in testifying Truth.
Quote:
Jesus Christ ascends into heaven. The Apostles look at each other in wonder for a moment and then exclaim to each other. "Oh great, He has gone, we are on our own, now what are we going to do?" Look in the mirror, and proclaim "I am my own authority". Split up go our own ways, but don't forget to take the mirror, otherwise we will forget our authority.
Correct. They waited , and were then filled with the Spirit, and Christ was in them. This not because they were apostles , for even the gentiles had same infilling. As Job says, "God puts understanding in a man" and I would add irrespective of persons.

There is a place where denying that dynamic of self and the Holy Ghost in the name of submissive piety is a sin as much as abusing our priesthood and denying any other authority.

Blessings
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  #259  
Old May 25, '17, 7:36 pm
SyCarl SyCarl is online now
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane1966 View Post
Hi Ben,
If the Assumption and Immaculate Conception are true, why should it matter when the Church defined it? Truth should have no expiration date. Can you truly say, you would accept the Assumption, if the Council of Nicaea had defined it?
I am sorry to break into this discussion but timing makes a huge difference. If the Immaculate Conception is true, is it a necessary truth?

God does not change so if it is necessary it must have been necessary from the beginning. If that is the case, the Church must have failed those who died before the dogma was defined by not telling them it was necessary. Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux come to mind. They both denied the Immaculate Conception as it was defined. Aquinas believed that Mary was born without the taint of original sin but denied she was free from it from the moment of conception which is what the definition says. If it was not necessary why define it?

I have heard it said that those living before the definition are fine because it only becomes necessary to believe it once it is defined. This would mean God changing what it is necessary to believe. If it is not necessary to believe it until it is defined, why define it at all?
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  #260  
Old May 26, '17, 12:15 am
Darryl B Darryl B is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by benhur View Post
Hi DB,

Not exactly, unless self says it is over all others, and that infallibly..

But yes, some reformers fell into the same trap.

I think most folk in my camp would say self acknowledges the possibility of another "self" challenging properly, kind of like iron sharpening iron.

I think we also acknowledge another self coming to the same "conclusions", and appreciate each other more, and divine inspiration more, seeing kindred unction /charism, and thereby becoming a stronger "cord'' in testifying Truth.
Correct. They waited , and were then filled with the Spirit, and Christ was in them. This not because they were apostles , for even the gentiles had same infilling. As Job says, "God puts understanding in a man" and I would add irrespective of persons.

There is a place where denying that dynamic of self and the Holy Ghost in the name of submissive piety is a sin as much as abusing our priesthood and denying any other authority.

Blessings
And you just did it again. You have a big mirror.
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  #261  
Old May 26, '17, 1:45 am
Darryl B Darryl B is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SyCarl View Post
I am sorry to break into this discussion but timing makes a huge difference. If the Immaculate Conception is true, is it a necessary truth?

God does not change so if it is necessary it must have been necessary from the beginning. If that is the case, the Church must have failed those who died before the dogma was defined by not telling them it was necessary. Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux come to mind. They both denied the Immaculate Conception as it was defined. Aquinas believed that Mary was born without the taint of original sin but denied she was free from it from the moment of conception which is what the definition says. If it was not necessary why define it?

I have heard it said that those living before the definition are fine because it only becomes necessary to believe it once it is defined. This would mean God changing what it is necessary to believe. If it is not necessary to believe it until it is defined, why define it at all?
St Thomas Aquinas believed that Mary was conceived in original sin, but not born in original sin. Do protestants come close to St Thomas Aquinas? As I see it immaculate was instantaneous with her conception. She was needing saved she was instantly saved. But then I have to try and understand the prophecy of Simeon, a Jewish man, a sword would pierce her soul.
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  #262  
Old May 26, '17, 2:10 pm
drblank1 drblank1 is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

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Originally Posted by jackrl98 View Post
i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you
Hi Jack, I did not read this thread but your title caught my eye and your initial post, my heart. Denomination does not matter when it comes to your relationship with God. If you feel Him pulling you to another church, then pray, pray, pray and read the Bible. He will speak clearly to you. As long as that church is Biblical in its doctrine and espouses the essential truths of Christianity, you cannot go wrong. God is not limited by denomination. The Church of Jesus Christ in not limited to a particular physical church/denomination. It is a spiritual church made of authentic believers across any denomination. I hope you have (or will soon) find God's will for your life.

God bless you!!!
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  #263  
Old May 26, '17, 5:31 pm
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benhur benhur is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

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Originally Posted by Darryl B View Post
And you just did it again. You have a big mirror.
Hi DB,

and do you know your fundamental flaw(s), as you see i must know mine ?

Blessings
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  #264  
Old Yesterday, 2:38 am
Darryl B Darryl B is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

The fundamental flaw is protestantism. Which I was, and quite proud of it. Almost to the point of, well you. You don't know the problem with your philosophy, I do, because I lived it, it was beautiful, it seemed tangible, but it was wrong. Are you going to educate me? You simply cannot my friend.
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  #265  
Old Yesterday, 6:28 pm
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benhur benhur is offline
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Default Re: doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

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Originally Posted by Darryl B View Post
The fundamental flaw is protestantism. Which I was, and quite proud of it. Almost to the point of, well you. You don't know the problem with your philosophy, I do, because I lived it, it was beautiful, it seemed tangible, but it was wrong. Are you going to educate me? You simply cannot my friend.
hiDB,

How do I not know the problem or pitfall of my paradigm when I admitted it, and have a history to show it, which then led to the question of your ability to humbly admit yours, and its history to show it.

Nothing to do with educating, for both sides have their converts from the other side.

Blessings
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