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  #61  
Old Mar 27, '17, 1:47 am
NoelFitz NoelFitz is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
No.

We do not enter into salvation by our works - we do not enter by ourselves into that state of initial justification thus "saving ourselves".

Rather it is by Faith.

Our faith in Jesus Christ and the gift of baptism. Faith is a gift. All is grace. We of course *by grace engage our "I" - but it is all by gift nothing is earned by works of the law or other works.

Tis by Faith.

Our faith in Christ.

Yes Jesus saved us by his death and resurrection...

And it is our faith. Yet that faith is given us by God. Gift. One we cooperate with of course - in our "I" by his grace.

Our Faith in Christ and Baptism into him. (initial justification).



Not the "faith of Christ". Jesus can be said not to have had "faith" like us but rather "sees".

He is the witness who has seen the Father...who knows him...who reveals him whom he knows...he is the witness we have Faith in!

(unfortunately some of our Protestant brothers go off in the wrong direction here).
Bookcat #45

I had hoped to finish commenting on all the posts this morning. But your post, as usual, takes up much of my time, because there is so much solid content there, and the posts are written with precision and depth.

I am reminded of St Augustine.

"He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent"

Do we need to contribute to our salvation, in other words are our works needed? We are back to the mathematicians idea of "a necessary, but not sufficient condition". Our work (our faith) is necessary for salvation, but it is not sufficient. This might be argued.

You say "all is faith". With respect, not so. Grace is one of the three theological virtues.

St Thomas, perhaps, has taught us the necessity of distinguishing between things.

The prevenient grace is not given due to our faith. When we were still sinners God acted.

I have quoted Ott before. Prevenient (advenient, antecedent) grace is given to us in spite of our sins.
In fact without grace we can do no meritorious acts, so grace has to be given first to one who has no merit or worth so that acts pleasing to God can be performed.

"The Church's teaching of the existence of antecedent grace and its necessity for the achievement of justification was defined at the Council of Trent" (Ott p. 227).

However, as is obvious, I am confused, but trying to seek clarity.


NAB Romans 5:6 For Christ, while we were still helpless, yet died at the appointed time for the ungodly.
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  #62  
Old Mar 27, '17, 7:05 am
Bookcat Bookcat is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post



Do we need to contribute to our salvation, in other words are our works needed? We are back to the mathematicians idea of "a necessary, but not sufficient condition". Our work (our faith) is necessary for salvation, but it is not sufficient. This might be argued.
Faith is not a "work" in either the Pauline sense of "works of the Law" nor in the moral sense where one is doing something to say earn something.

Faith most importantly a gift. From God.

We yes are involved of course - we give our "yes" by grace.

One must distinguish between initial justification (salvation) and then what comes after.

Nothing we can do - be it a work of the Law or some work of ours - can earn our salvation - our moving from death to true life.

That comes by faith and baptism. By the grace of God.

We cannot "give it to ourselves" or "earn it".

Though as I noted in the post above we are involved. Our 'I' yes is involved.

After being made a new creation - being justified by grace through faith and baptism - then yes we must remain in that grace - remain living by faith and hope and love.

The we must then "work out our salvation" by remaining "living" in Christ and his Church - and walking in love. Faith working in love.
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  #63  
Old Mar 27, '17, 7:07 am
Bookcat Bookcat is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post

You say "all is faith". With respect, not so. Grace is one of the three theological virtues.
No I said...grace. All is grace.

It is a line from St. Therese.

And grace is not one of the three theological virtues. Seemed you typed too fast like I do sometimes....
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  #64  
Old Mar 27, '17, 7:14 am
Bookcat Bookcat is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post
[b]Bookcat

".. there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.

The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14).""

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedic...rta-fidei.html
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  #65  
Old Mar 27, '17, 8:16 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post
Are we saved by the cross, by faith, by daily mass, by baptism or by the Holy Spirit?
It's not either/or though I think. Maybe your question is a bit like asking for the cause of the saving of a drowning man. Was he saved by the will of the one who threw the life-preserver, or was it by his act of throwing it, or was it by the preserver itself, or by the will of the victim to reach for the preserver, or the act of the victim grasping it? Trent lists the causes of justification this way:

"…the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body."

So my clumsy interpretation: the final cause has to do with God’s purpose in justification, the reason behind the whole plan to begin with, the efficient cause is the primary movement of God in getting the deed done, the meritorious cause stems from the intrinsic need for correcting and reversing a moral aberration in creation in order to make possible the effect, the instrumental cause is secondary; our response to God’s plan whereby the merits of Christ are actually applied, and then the formal cause is the justice itself that God infuses into us.

So man’s justification all originates with God’s will, and ends with the deed accomplished: authentic justice actually being realized within man. God wills and initiates it; Jesus performs the actual work according to the Father's will that enables it, man receives or appropriates it by his own cooperation or response by believing and then acting on that faith in the sacrament of Baptism, the result is God’s justice poured into us. He ‘puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts’.

From there, depending on the time and opportunities given (every person's lot is different in this respect), we're expected to work out our salvation (Phil 2), investing our talents as per the Parable of the Talents, keeping our Baptismal vows but even increasing the justice that was given there, primarily as we follow Christ and advance His Kingdom in whatever way He would have us do.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:10

And some of those works are outlined in Matt 25:31-46. Performing them doesn't save us-and yet ignoring or turning from or "burying" the grace and justice that prompts them should cause us to lose place in the kingdom.
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  #66  
Old Mar 27, '17, 10:55 am
Mammoths Mammoths is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post
fhansem #22
previously I wrote I am loathe to disagree with you. In most things I almost fully agree with you.

Traditionally Catholics considered the 'both/and' of faith and works. In most things Catholics seem 'both/and' people, while Protestants are 'either/or'.

But I believe we are saved by faith, and by this I tend to believe the fath/faithfulness of Jesus, so in translations of Paul the NET bible seems to get this.

The imputed/infused argument goes back, but now I think most Christians believe we are changed/transformed by grace.

I think we need good works to remain in the state of grace, but to get grace good works are not enough. We need grace to be saved, and this is a gratuitous unearned gift.
There is a Protestant habit of choosing a translation that has the connotation 'i' prefers. If you have to hand select a translation for the Bible to mean what you think it means, you probably don't see it as it is. In this case, eph 2 explains the problem of being able to save ourselves by our own faith. "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God--not of works lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship..." It is faith God gives by which we receive grace. Grace is provided by God's work. Grace is received by our faith. We have faith because He gave it to us. That gift is a grace. When we cooperate with the grace to believe we receive the graces that continue to lead us to glory as long as we continue in the faith we have received cooperating with God's grace. So you are correct in that it is the faithfulness of Jesus in doing the will of the father by which we are saved from the perspective of the Man who brings the rescue basket down to our sinking ship. However we are saved by our faith when we cooperate with the coastguard swimmer in getting in the basket. Don't break it down like a proof. The proof is scripture. The rescue basket is just a picture. Obviously some shipwreck victims go in the basket unconscious but that isn't the point.
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  #67  
Old Mar 27, '17, 2:12 pm
NoelFitz NoelFitz is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by Herculees View Post
We are saved as a result of His birth, life, passion, death and resurrection.

PS: Thank you Mary for agreeing to give birth to my Lord, and God.
Herculees

Simple, isn't it?
I agree.
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  #68  
Old Mar 28, '17, 12:19 pm
NoelFitz NoelFitz is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

Bookcat #62,

I was annoyed with you.

I am trying to reply to the posts here and can answer most quickly, but when I see yours (or those of fhansen) I have to be fully alert and concentrate, as they are so solid and contain deep Catholic understanding. Either you are very bright or they did a good job in Steubenville. After I read you at times I need to consult B XVI, the CCC, St Thomas and my friend Ludwig Ott. I started this reply yesterday and it is still not finished.

Anyway.

You wrote ‘Faith most importantly a gift. From God’.

What is faith, is it a work? In a former incarnation I knew what work was, it was 'force multiplied by distance'. I would love to have those days again with definitions that one believed in and understood.

I learned in school faith was a theological virtue, as I have claimed several times in this thread.

The CCC has : 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself.

I see on the web that a virtue is a habit. Ciceo tells us "Virtue is a habit of the mind, consistent with nature and moderation and reason." A habit is a settled or regular tendency or practice, especially one that is hard to give up.

I also see “It is commonly thought that virtues, according to Aristotle, are habits” http://www.iep.utm.edu/aris-eth/


But I also see “Unlike the cardinal virtues, which can be practiced by anyone, the theological virtues are gifts of grace from God."

So I have to admit you are right, faith is a gift from God.

Perhaps I should say 'oops, sorry'. But I am here for, to discuss, learn and grow in the faith, and you have shown me how to do these.

So thank you most sincerely for your patience and knowledge in helping to clarify my thoughts.
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  #69  
Old Mar 28, '17, 12:29 pm
Bookcat Bookcat is offline
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Default Re: By what/who are we saved?

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Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post
[b]
I learned in school faith was a theological virtue, as I have claimed several times in this thread.

The CCC has : 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself.

I see on the web that a virtue is a habit. Ciceo tells us "Virtue is a habit of the mind, consistent with nature and moderation and reason." A habit is a settled or regular tendency or practice, especially one that is hard to give up.

I also see “It is commonly thought that virtues, according to Aristotle, are habits” http://www.iep.utm.edu/aris-eth/


But I also see “Unlike the cardinal virtues, which can be practiced by anyone, the theological virtues are gifts of grace from God."

So I have to admit you are right, faith is a gift from God.

Perhaps I should say 'oops, sorry'. But I am here for, to discuss, learn and grow in the faith, and you have shown me how to do these.

So thank you most sincerely for your patience and knowledge in helping to clarify my thoughts.
(Your welcome)

Yes faith is a virtue - it a habitus infused by God. Tis a gift.

Note too in your readings that Faith gets used in various senses....(see Pope Benedict XVI regarding such in Paul I linked above). The fact of the different senses can easily bring some confusion until that is seen.
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