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  #136  
Old Apr 21, '17, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by KnowtheSilence View Post
I have a brother and father who are ministers and an aunt in seminary; we've had more conversations with them about out religion than I can count.
I went to a small group, sort of like an Alpha course, if you're familiar with it, at the church I was attending when I became an atheist several years ago. Lots of conversations there, and after that course was over the pastor and co-lead another small group where we read through a book about apologetics (I was openly an atheist through all of this).
Currently I live in a college town and have a lot of conversations with religious groups that set up tables on campus and hand out pamphlets and such. There are some Jehovah's Witnesses that set up pretty regularly, and I've had some long chats with them. I've probably spent the most time with an older Calvinist gentleman who is out there pretty much whenever the weather is nice and he has time off. When the atheist club sets up their table I'll usually hang out with them and talk with people who come up and ask questions.
Fair enough.

I retract the above comment that you've not had very many face-to-face religious discussions.

Clearly, I was wrong in my assumption.
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  #137  
Old Apr 21, '17, 3:51 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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If you choose to ignore the rest of that paragraph, I can understand why you'd make the mistake of thinking that.


He has surveyed thousands of articles over the past few decades that talk about Jesus' and the supposed events surrounding it. From there he has purported to try to establish what percentage of "experts" think that those events are historical vs not historical, and had taken what he says are the most agreed upon facts as the "minimal facts," facts that even skeptics should be able to agree are at least historically true. From there, he argues that an actual resurrection is the best explanation of those facts.
And what are these minimal facts that even skeptics agree are historically true, and do you believe them to be historically true?
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  #138  
Old Apr 21, '17, 4:55 pm
KnowtheSilence KnowtheSilence is offline
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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And what are these minimal facts that even skeptics agree are historically true, and do you believe them to be historically true?
The list varies from four to over twenty. Here's the list he used during an appearance on the radio program Unbelievable! a year or so ago (my thoughts on each in italics):

Minimal facts (90% or better acceptance by Habermas' "experts")
1. Jesus died by Roman crucifixion (yes)
2. After his death, his disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus (maybe; I have some doubts whether all or any had actual experiences)
3.The disciples were transformed by their experiences and proclaimed his resurrection and were willing to die for their belief in the resurrection (maybe)
4. The proclamation of his resurrection was early (okay)
5. James was converted by a post-mortem experience (okay)
6. Paul was converted by a post-mortem experience (okay)

Extended facts (less than 90%, but still widely accepted):
1. Burial for Jesus in a private tomb (I doubt it)
2. The private tomb found empty (I doubt it)
3. The disciples despaired after Jesus was crucified (probably)
4. The proclamation of the resurrection started in Jerusalem (okay)
5. Changing the worship day from Saturday to Sunday (okay)
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  #139  
Old Apr 21, '17, 5:40 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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2. After his death, his disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus (maybe; I have some doubts whether all or any had actual experiences)
What are you using as your source for these experiences and why do you doubt the veracity of these experiences?

Quote:
3.The disciples were transformed by their experiences and proclaimed his resurrection and were willing to die for their belief in the resurrection (maybe)
You're not sure? So you're saying it's possible that the historical accounts of the early Christians dying at the hands of the Romans rather than retract their testimony is not an actual event?

Quote:
Burial for Jesus in a private tomb (I doubt it)
Why do you doubt this?

Quote:
2. The private tomb found empty (I doubt it)
Who lied about this? And why?
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  #140  
Old Apr 24, '17, 6:13 am
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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What are you using as your source for these experiences and why do you doubt the veracity of these experiences?
The Gospels would be the main source, and things like questionable authorship, historical implausibilities, and apparent myth making cause me to doubt.

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You're not sure? So you're saying it's possible that the historical accounts of the early Christians dying at the hands of the Romans rather than retract their testimony is not an actual event?
Yes, itís definitely possible that the martyrdom accounts of the apostles are not actual events. Most of them come from the second century or later and there are contradictions among several of the accounts.

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Why do you doubt this?
It seems implausible that Jesus would have died so quickly and his body removed so soon. Iím also not convinced that Joseph of Arimathea is a historical person.

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Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Who lied about this? And why?
Mark, or whoever he got the story from. I can only guess at the motives.
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  #141  
Old Yesterday, 5:05 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Mark, or whoever he got the story from. I can only guess at the motives.
Now, this was written within 1 generation of the event.

If Mark lied, there was a whole generation of people who could have simply spoken up and said, "Emm...hold your horses. This is a bald-faced lie. That man did not die. Here's his burial place. Here's his bones."

Yet not a single person was able to offer any refutation of this account.

It would have been sooooo easy to refute. Just go to the tomb. Provide some tangle proof in calcium.

It's so credulous to embrace any other explanation.
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  #142  
Old Yesterday, 6:09 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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The Gospels would be the main source, and things like questionable authorship, historical implausibilities, and apparent myth making cause me to doubt.
I'd like to point out how circular this is: "I don't believe in the Gospels because they contain myths" and "The resurrection is a myth. It's in the Gospel, therefore I don't believe the Gospels."
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  #143  
Old Yesterday, 6:21 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Most of them come from the second century or later and there are contradictions among several of the accounts.
Can you offer some of them?

(And let's be clear about our definitions. For it to be a contradiction one text should claim "A" and the other text should assert "Not-A".)
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  #144  
Old Yesterday, 6:38 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Now I'm just helping you connect the dots.

You simply can't be a secular humanist who acknowledges objective morality, and remain a secular humanist.

It's kind of like saying, "I don't believe that cows are mammals, but I do acknowledge that all female mammals can produce milk".
Albert Camus became a secular humanist and acknowledged objective morality. His objective morality was based on human values which we all share. This is one of the essential features of humanism. Further, there are several variations of humanism, and the concept has a long and complex history.
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  #145  
Old Yesterday, 6:42 pm
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Albert Camus became a secular humanist and acknowledged objective morality. His objective morality was based on human values which we all share. This is one of the essential features of humanism. Further, there are several variations of humanism, and the concept has a long and complex history.
Oh, to be sure you "can" be a secular humanist and acknowledge objective morality.

But only by way of obfuscating one's logic.

Again, it's like saying, "I don't believe that cows are mammals, but I do acknowledge that all female mammals can produce milk".
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  #146  
Old Today, 1:35 am
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Default Re: Atheistic Meme re: Good Friday--Your Thoughts?

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Now, this was written within 1 generation of the event.

If Mark lied, there was a whole generation of people who could have simply spoken up and said, "Emm...hold your horses. This is a bald-faced lie. That man did not die. Here's his burial place. Here's his bones."

Yet not a single person was able to offer any refutation of this account.

It would have been sooooo easy to refute. Just go to the tomb. Provide some tangle proof in calcium.

It's so credulous to embrace any other explanation.
If memory serves, the life expectancy at the time was that if you survived childhood Ė which was a big if Ė then you had a 50/50 chance of making it to your mid-40ís; your chances of seeing each additional year after that plummeted pretty quickly. Since Mark was written 30+ years after the crucifixion at best, we can expect that a lot of the people who would have been around at the time were dead already.

Of the ones who were left, what would be the motivating factor to go as far as to write a refutation of the people going around saying there was an empty tomb because Jesus resurrected? Most who heard it would have just dismissed it and gone about their lives. If someone did write a refutation, who would want it, let alone copy and preserve it? For most people, it would be telling them something they already knew.

Consider this: Mormonism has been effectively debunked as far as its major historical claims go. Any fair-minded examination of the evidence would lead one to conclude that it is a fabrication created by a con man. And yet the Mormon Church continues to grow in the US. Itís one of the few Christian denominations (I know, itís debatable to call them ďChristianĒ; I donít really care and am not going to debate that point) that is growing. Itís growth has slowed of late, but itís better than the decline that so many others are seeing. And this is with a religion that has been thoroughly debunked. So is it really so unthinkable that something like the story of an empty tomb could take hold an spread, even if it was easily debunked?
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