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  #91  
Old Jun 17, '17, 11:35 am
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by inocente View Post
Not sure what you mean by "meaningless meditation". All scripture is about salvation. "The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go" (Galileo).
It is a meaningless meditation to read Genesis and then think God just rolled the dice to see how everything turned out.

"God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein

“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.” Albert Einstein

It seems Einstein is closer to the God of Genesis than you are.

So was Isaac Newton:

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”

Last but perhaps no least: Francis Collins, the leader of the international Human Genome Project, which had labored mightily over more than a decade to reveal the DNA sequence.

"It is humbling for me, and awe-inspiring, to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."
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Last edited by Charlemagne III; Jun 17, '17 at 11:47 am.
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  #92  
Old Jun 18, '17, 8:10 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
It is a meaningless meditation to read Genesis and then think God just rolled the dice to see how everything turned out.

"God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein

“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.” Albert Einstein

It seems Einstein is closer to the God of Genesis than you are.

So was Isaac Newton:

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”

Last but perhaps no least: Francis Collins, the leader of the international Human Genome Project, which had labored mightily over more than a decade to reveal the DNA sequence.

"It is humbling for me, and awe-inspiring, to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."
Sure, that's what you get by granting the mutterings of scientists authority on religion.
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  #93  
Old Jun 18, '17, 10:19 am
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Sure, that's what you get by granting the mutterings of scientists authority on religion.
As opposed to your authority? Which comes from where?
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“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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  #94  
Old Jun 19, '17, 2:33 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
As opposed to your authority? Which comes from where?
That's irrelevant, but in any event I'm not the one disagreeing with the Church here. Whereas you're Catholic yet instead of referring to bible scholars and Catholic teaching on reading scripture, you're using the selected opinions of scientists. Even then, Newton was not a Catholic and had "unusual" beliefs. Einstein was completely dismissive of theism. And Collins argues against intelligent design and god-of-the-gaps.
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  #95  
Old Jun 19, '17, 9:53 am
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Faithdancer Faithdancer is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
More of a problem for atheists since it can never be proved, and therefore so far as they are concerned falls in the same class of subjects that are not to be given credence ... such as God.


And if there is a multiverse, why can't it in turn be the product of an intelligent designer?
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  #96  
Old Jun 19, '17, 10:22 am
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by inocente View Post
That's irrelevant, but in any event I'm not the one disagreeing with the Church here. Whereas you're Catholic yet instead of referring to bible scholars and Catholic teaching on reading scripture, you're using the selected opinions of scientists. Even then, Newton was not a Catholic and had "unusual" beliefs. Einstein was completely dismissive of theism. And Collins argues against intelligent design and god-of-the-gaps.
Einstein was dismissive of a personal God, but he was not completely dismissive of theism. He was completely dismissive of atheism, and said so on several occasions. It seems odd that you have never heard of this.

Einstein said, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[

He also said, “The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’—cannot hear the music of the spheres.” Albert Einstein

Collins quote says it all. He says ... "It is humbling for me, and awe-inspiring, to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God." Tell me, how do you have an instruction book without designing one?
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"We must love those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. Both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."


“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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  #97  
Old Jun 19, '17, 10:27 am
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Faithdancer View Post


And if there is a multiverse, why can't it in turn be the product of an intelligent designer?
Excellent question, which it no doubt escaped being asked by atheists.
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"We must love those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. Both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."


“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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  #98  
Old Jun 19, '17, 3:30 pm
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Bradski Bradski is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
Excellent question, which it no doubt escaped being asked by atheists.
Far from the question being asked, it was answered, by an atheist, in the fourth post. I don't know who you might think you are arguing with? Someone made of dried grass it appears.
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  #99  
Old Jun 19, '17, 3:42 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Faithdancer View Post


And if there is a multiverse, why can't it in turn be the product of an intelligent designer?
However one might define "multiverse," and I understand there are several meanings, it would seem to me that the sheer mathematical and philosophical complexity of such a thing might lend more credence toward some sort of creative design.
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  #100  
Old Jun 19, '17, 4:43 pm
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Faithdancer Faithdancer is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Far from the question being asked, it was answered, by an atheist, in the fourth post. I don't know who you might think you are arguing with? Someone made of dried grass it appears.
Glad you agree with yourself!
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  #101  
Old Jun 19, '17, 5:47 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by inocente View Post
It's said the idea was first used by Erwin Schrödinger in 1952, to explain quantum theory. I've read some of his writing. He was drawn to Hindu Vedanta philosophy and was a deep thinker about spirituality. Like Lemaitre he saw attempts to make God scientific as trivializing God, for instance "I think we know that whenever God is experienced, it is an experience exactly as real as a direct sense impression, as real as one’s own personality. As such He must be missing from the space-time picture".
No doubt Erwin Schrödinger liked the idea of a multiverse as a way to explain how that cat could be both alive and dead until you opened the box and made the observation.

I'm admittedly a little disappointed though, that the odds favoring a flat universe are so high. I was hoping for a spherical universe (with regular three dimensional space, of course, being the surface of the sphere.) In such a universe, one could set out traveling in a straight line and eventually come back to your starting point after a few trillion years, having circumnavigated the universe. (If you're traveling very fast, though, it wouldn't seem so long.)
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  #102  
Old Jun 20, '17, 4:37 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
Einstein was dismissive of a personal God, but he was not completely dismissive of theism. He was completely dismissive of atheism, and said so on several occasions. It seems odd that you have never heard of this.

Einstein said, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[

He also said, “The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’—cannot hear the music of the spheres.” Albert Einstein

Collins quote says it all. He says ... "It is humbling for me, and awe-inspiring, to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God." Tell me, how do you have an instruction book without designing one?
Sounds as if you think it's logically necessary that Collins can only speak the truth, and the possibility he might be wrong or you might have misinterpreted him hasn't occurred to you.

I've no ides why you're quoting scientists as if they're any more qualified as authorities of religion than taxi drivers or poets, but if you want to believe their opinions are infallible and they are the go-to authority on the bible, knock yourself out.
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  #103  
Old Jun 20, '17, 4:50 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by JimG View Post
No doubt Erwin Schrödinger liked the idea of a multiverse as a way to explain how that cat could be both alive and dead until you opened the box and made the observation.

I'm admittedly a little disappointed though, that the odds favoring a flat universe are so high. I was hoping for a spherical universe (with regular three dimensional space, of course, being the surface of the sphere.) In such a universe, one could set out traveling in a straight line and eventually come back to your starting point after a few trillion years, having circumnavigated the universe. (If you're traveling very fast, though, it wouldn't seem so long.)
Yes, I'm no expert on QM but think the Schrödinger equation doesn't differentiate between alternate and parallel histories, so he had no reason to rule out either of them. Most of us believe history could have been different anyway, and philosophers then got interested in the notion of possible worlds, all those logically possible alternatives to our universe with other histories.

So perhaps in another possible world, JimG is disappointed that his universe seems to be spherical.
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  #104  
Old Jun 20, '17, 5:07 pm
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by inocente View Post
I've no ides why you're quoting scientists as if they're any more qualified as authorities of religion than taxi drivers or poets, but if you want to believe their opinions are infallible and they are the go-to authority on the bible, knock yourself out.
Well, there's an interesting point to consider, that scientists cannot be philosophers but you can.

By the way, what is your authority for biblical interpretation? Isn't it yourself?

And why would you be an authority?
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"We must love those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. Both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."


“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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  #105  
Old Jun 21, '17, 5:33 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
Well, there's an interesting point to consider, that scientists cannot be philosophers but you can.

By the way, what is your authority for biblical interpretation? Isn't it yourself?

And why would you be an authority?
Just as last time you asked, irrelevant. You're the one taking selected opinions of scientists as your authorities on scripture. And they are just opinions, you've not cited any philosophical treatise from any scientist.

You've been arguing for several days now that I should ignore all bible scholars, apologists and theologians, and instead accept your personal interpretation of Gen 1 based on a few short quotes you yourself selected from a couple of scientists, who don't even mention the scripture. As I said, if you want to ignore your Church and go your own way, by all means knock yourself out, but your technique for interpreting scripture seems to be your own invention, and then some, and I decline to join you, thanks all the same.
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