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  #46  
Old Jun 18, '17, 8:47 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is online now
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
And being so exceedingly well versed, they said rosaries and read from private devotional books.

There was a reason the 2,000+ bishops of the world wanted to increase participation in the Mass - they knew there were problems.
.

It was certainly a dramatic change in paradigm.

The Faithful were expected to remain quiet and engage in prayer during the mass, and had been for many, many years. They were "hearing" mass, and that expression is still used today.

Then the expectations changed, and they were expected to read prayers from the missal.

Quite a shift, and although it wasn't done "overnight", innovations like the optional "Dialogue Mass" helped, I'm sure it was difficult particularly for older people, who spent the whole lives being quiet in church now not only speaking aloud themselves, but hearing hundreds of other voices where they weren't heard before.
  #47  
Old Jun 19, '17, 8:51 am
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi View Post
It was certainly a dramatic change in paradigm.

The Faithful were expected to remain quiet and engage in prayer during the mass, and had been for many, many years. They were "hearing" mass, and that expression is still used today.

Then the expectations changed, and they were expected to read prayers from the missal.

Quite a shift, and although it wasn't done "overnight", innovations like the optional "Dialogue Mass" helped, I'm sure it was difficult particularly for older people, who spent the whole lives being quiet in church now not only speaking aloud themselves, but hearing hundreds of other voices where they weren't heard before.


That is incorrect.



Ed
  #48  
Old Jun 19, '17, 3:43 pm
commenter commenter is offline
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

The EF had much more of a supernatural emphasis. There was a recognition that, during this Mass, Heaven was somehow participating in our midst, and that we were somehow participating in the ongoing liturgy of Heaven. People applaud the increased "participation" of the laity under the OF, as if verbalizing were the only kind of important participation.

But in the EF there clearly is more "entering into" the Sacrifice of the Mass with the Heart, mind, and emotions. In the OF there is more lay verbalizing, but for most not an appreciation that there is something crucial going on here, something that touches Heaven and Earth like nothing else. Of course every valid Mass does that, but the EF makes it clearer, more explicit to the laity that this is happening. It is not less participating, but a different kind of participating.
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  #49  
Old Jun 19, '17, 11:18 pm
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi View Post
It was certainly a dramatic change in paradigm.

The Faithful were expected to remain quiet and engage in prayer during the mass, and had been for many, many years. They were "hearing" mass, and that expression is still used today.

Then the expectations changed, and they were expected to read prayers from the missal.

Quite a shift, and although it wasn't done "overnight", innovations like the optional "Dialogue Mass" helped, I'm sure it was difficult particularly for older people, who spent the whole lives being quiet in church now not only speaking aloud themselves, but hearing hundreds of other voices where they weren't heard before.
I am 71, and so I knew a lot of the "older people". And I did not know anyone who had any difficulty of any significance in the changes. Some may have not liked it, but back then, obedience was far more strongly felt than it is now.
  #50  
Old Jun 19, '17, 11:37 pm
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

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Originally Posted by commenter View Post
The EF had much more of a supernatural emphasis. There was a recognition that, during this Mass, Heaven was somehow participating in our midst, and that we were somehow participating in the ongoing liturgy of Heaven. People applaud the increased "participation" of the laity under the OF, as if verbalizing were the only kind of important participation.

But in the EF there clearly is more "entering into" the Sacrifice of the Mass with the Heart, mind, and emotions. In the OF there is more lay verbalizing, but for most not an appreciation that there is something crucial going on here, something that touches Heaven and Earth like nothing else. Of course every valid Mass does that, but the EF makes it clearer, more explicit to the laity that this is happening. It is not less participating, but a different kind of participating.
Actually, the OF is every bit as supernatural as the EF.

The emphasis in the EF was God transcendent.

The OF brought in an emphasis of God imminent to balance with the transcendent. And so the heart, mind and emotions are more fully brought to focus on the Mass - and in particular the mind, as, prior to the release of the OF, only a minority had missals, and very few understood enough Latin to be able to translate any parts of the Mass, let alone be able to converse in it.

"Participation" in the EF prior to the entry of the OF consisted for the majority of individuals of saying their rosary, or reading pamphlets of private devotions int he larger part; some just "made their obligation".

We might remember that the Mass started with the Last Supper - which was the celebration of the Passover, with its specific rituals. Your waxing eloquent about the EF could cause someone to criticize Christ - and those who followed him for a number of generations - who did not have the EF.
  #51  
Old Jun 21, '17, 10:12 am
commenter commenter is offline
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

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Originally Posted by otjm View Post
Actually, the OF is every bit as supernatural as the EF.

The emphasis in the EF was God transcendent.
The transcendence of God is often forgotten in the West nowadays. If you are going to emphasize anything, not a bad idea to remind people of this.

I agree that the OF is every bit as valid, every bit as supernatural as the EF, objectively speaking. I am just pointing out the EF makes the supernatural element more explicit to the worshipper.

I had not attended the EF for decades. When I started doing that on occasion, I realized some aspects that are not unique to the EF, but uniquely visible in the EF. Ideally I should have been aware of that while attending the OF all along, but I guess I wasn't that attentive.

After having attended the EF a few times, I am more spiritually sensitive to the realities that are present in all valid masses. Today, I normally attend the OF mass in my parish.

Of those people I know who do go to the diocesan approved EF every week, half of them are young families. They have no memory of pre Vatican II, they were brought up exclusively on the OF. But they find something there now.

The OF Mass would be said more reverently, with more understanding by the laity, if the EF were available more widely. Ideally, every Catholic school student should have the EF at least a couple times during their enrollment. Every parish, or at least every cluster of parishes, should have the EF at least once a year.
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  #52  
Old Jun 21, '17, 10:17 am
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Revival of the Latin mass

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Originally Posted by otjm View Post
I am 71, and so I knew a lot of the "older people". And I did not know anyone who had any difficulty of any significance in the changes. Some may have not liked it, but back then, obedience was far more strongly felt than it is now.

Same here. Obedience to Holy Mother Church came first. I didn't love God any less after the Ordinary Form began.



Ed
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