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View Poll Results: What is YOUR opinion of President Trump?
I think he's doing a great job, I support him 100%. 43 22.51%
I think he's doing a good job and I support most, but not all, of what he's doing. 42 21.99%
I think it's too early to judge how he's doing, I support some of his policies but not others. 26 13.61%
I think he's doing a fair job at best, but there are a couple of his actions I do agree with. 12 6.28%
I think he'd doing a terrible job, he's not my president. 53 27.75%
Other. 15 7.85%
Voters: 191. You may not vote on this poll

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  #286  
Old Mar 20, '17, 1:31 pm
Jig_Saw Jig_Saw is offline
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by BoomBoomMancini View Post
I get what he's saying: that "lying" as such requires an intent to deceive. Someone who is sincerely wrong isn't lying: they're just mistaken.

Problem is, I think we assume that there has been some attempt to figure out if the statement is true. You can't be willfully ignorant, basically. If I say, without looking out the window, "It's sunny outside right now", and have no basis to think it's sunny, I'm not really lying per se. I'm just being negligent in my obligation to do some basic checking to see if my statements are true.

So if Trump honestly believes that his inauguration crowds were "yuge", he's not really lying. But he is failing to do even the most basic of research before making a definitive statement.
So, the George Costanza defense - it's not really a lie if you believe it.
  #287  
Old Mar 20, '17, 1:34 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Jig_Saw View Post
So, the George Costanza defense - it's not really a lie if you believe it.
It seems that way. Self-deception is not regarded by George or by Donald as lying.
  #288  
Old Mar 20, '17, 1:42 pm
Jig_Saw Jig_Saw is offline
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
It seems that way. Self-deception is not regarded by George or by Donald as lying.
What does it say about his supporters that allow him to use the George Costanza excuse?
  #289  
Old Mar 20, '17, 1:51 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
If Trump actually BELIEVES in many of the statements he has made, which have been shown to be untrue, then we have a potentially bigger problem than that which results from one prone to lying or "misspeaking," such as Hillary Clinton.

But apparently you are bound to defend Trump against any and all evidence to the contrary, whether it be from the media, the CIA, the FBI, the GOP, or whatever. That is psychologically understandable since a supporter of a candidate, even if he was not their first choice, tends to search for reasons why they supported him after he is elected. This behavior helps ease any cognitive dissonance that may result if one does NOT support a candidate after one has voted for them. All of us are motivated to reduce cognitive dissonance after making an important choice or decision. One way to do that is by looking for the positive features of our choice, while ignoring the negative ones. (I am using the term cognitive dissonance according to its psychological meaning, not according to its everyday usage.)
No, Meltzerboy, I am merely sick of the incessant attacks, many of which are trivial and/or unsupported, and have nothing to do with anything the man is attempting. I understand partisan upset, even bitterness, but this thing is beyond anything I have ever witnessed in my life.

My argument here has been that when it comes to the assertions about Trump being tapped or hacked, nobody knows for sure, if for no other reason than that nobody could have possibly investigated it well in this short a period of time. Trump says it will come out in time. I have no particular reason to believe or doubt that, but I'm not willing to abandon everything else I support for the sake of something like that.

Cognitive dissonance? What cognitive dissonance? Trump has nominated Neil Gorsuch, which I very much support. Indeed, I favor nearly all of his appointees for their particular offices. I VERY much support Trump's withdrawal of WOTUS. I support the wall. I support curtailing refugee immigration from hotbeds of terrorism. I support repealing Obamacare. I note the continued performance on Wall Street, and approve of that. I very much support repeal of most of Dodd Frank, if not all. I support tax reduction. I support elimination of "sanctuary cities". I simply want to see his programs happen, to the extent I know them and to the extent they're fully developed, not just because I voted for him, but because I believe in them myself.

But none of that has anything to do with being "conflicted" by contrary or inconsistent elements.

There are a number of things I would support that I'm pretty sure he won't support; things like improving SSD and means testing social security. But okay, one doesn't get everything one wants.

We'll see what the man does. I hope those things happen and happen well.
  #290  
Old Mar 20, '17, 1:54 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Jig_Saw View Post
What does it say about his supporters that allow him to use the George Costanza excuse?
I have no idea who George Constanza is, so perhaps context has meaning.

But in any other context, if one believes what one is saying is true, it isn't a "lie" even if it's factually false. And so far, at least as to the tapping or hacking, it hasn't been disproved, either. Nor has it been proved.
  #291  
Old Mar 20, '17, 2:02 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
No, Meltzerboy, I am merely sick of the incessant attacks, many of which are trivial and/or unsupported, and have nothing to do with anything the man is attempting. I understand partisan upset, even bitterness, but this thing is beyond anything I have ever witnessed in my life.

My argument here has been that when it comes to the assertions about Trump being tapped or hacked, nobody knows for sure, if for no other reason than that nobody could have possibly investigated it well in this short a period of time. Trump says it will come out in time. I have no particular reason to believe or doubt that, but I'm not willing to abandon everything else I support for the sake of something like that.

Cognitive dissonance? What cognitive dissonance? Trump has nominated Neil Gorsuch, which I very much support. Indeed, I favor nearly all of his appointees for their particular offices. I VERY much support Trump's withdrawal of WOTUS. I support the wall. I support curtailing refugee immigration from hotbeds of terrorism. I support repealing Obamacare. I note the continued performance on Wall Street, and approve of that. I very much support repeal of most of Dodd Frank, if not all. I support tax reduction. I support elimination of "sanctuary cities". I simply want to see his programs happen, to the extent I know them and to the extent they're fully developed, not just because I voted for him, but because I believe in them myself.

But none of that has anything to do with being "conflicted" by contrary or inconsistent elements.

There are a number of things I would support that I'm pretty sure he won't support; things like improving SSD and means testing social security. But okay, one doesn't get everything one wants.



We'll see what the man does. I hope those things happen and happen well.
I agree with you on one point: some (but not all) of the attacks against Trump are unsupported or trivial. Otherwise, I suppose we just have very different political worldviews on a host of issues. But that's OK. I don't participate on this Forum to preach to the choir.
  #292  
Old Mar 20, '17, 3:37 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
I agree with you on one point: some (but not all) of the attacks against Trump are unsupported or trivial. Otherwise, I suppose we just have very different political worldviews on a host of issues. But that's OK. I don't participate on this Forum to preach to the choir.
Nor do I participate here to preach to any choir. I do it in an effort to keep others from being misled, and not just in matters of politics.

I suspect we share at least this in addition to at least some degree of skepticism of the Trump bashing. I am very much disturbed that so little aid is given in this country to the people most desperately in need, particularly the disabled poor. I suspect you would agree that neither party has done anything for them for years, and neither is likely to in the foreseeable future, either

Possibly you and I would not disagree that the current political and economic system inadequately provides ordinary people with a reasonable opportunity to acquire productive assets. Imaginably we would agree that even 401Ks are being looted by unscrupulous "money managers" in most cases. (Yes, I really do think "most")

Imaginably we would agree that neither excessive dependency on government or dependency on big business (including the psychological dependency of consumerism) is good for people or desirable for a society.

But I'll stipulate that we probably do not agree on much more.
  #293  
Old Mar 20, '17, 3:57 pm
Jig_Saw Jig_Saw is offline
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
I have no idea who George Constanza is, so perhaps context has meaning.

But in any other context, if one believes what one is saying is true, it isn't a "lie" even if it's factually false. And so far, at least as to the tapping or hacking, it hasn't been disproved, either. Nor has it been proved.
Then you really need to watch Seinfeld because you are exactly describing President George Costanza.
  #294  
Old Mar 20, '17, 4:29 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Jig_Saw View Post
Then you really need to watch Seinfeld because you are exactly describing President George Costanza.
I must admit I have never seen Seinfeld. But it might be just as well. If the character depiction leads one to think subjective misunderstanding is the same thing as an objective and deliberate lie, then I seem to have missed nothing worthwhile.
  #295  
Old Mar 20, '17, 4:34 pm
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Michael68 Michael68 is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
I must admit I have never seen Seinfeld. But it might be just as well. If the character depiction leads one to think subjective misunderstanding is the same thing as an objective and deliberate lie, then I seem to have missed nothing worthwhile.
I don't understand the Costansa comparison. "If you believe it, its not a lie" or something like that. Costanza is still starting with a lie. And you are presuming Trump starts with a lie. I totally disagrer with that assessment'
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  #296  
Old Mar 20, '17, 4:45 pm
Jig_Saw Jig_Saw is offline
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
I don't understand the Costansa comparison. "If you believe it, its not a lie" or something like that. Costanza is still starting with a lie. And you are presuming Trump starts with a lie. I totally disagrer with that assessment'
Starting with a lie like the biggest inauguration crowd ever?
  #297  
Old Mar 20, '17, 5:02 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Jig_Saw View Post
Starting with a lie like the biggest inauguration crowd ever?
Which I think was actually Spicer's claim. It's disputed and attempts have been made to gauge all viewers, including on TV and online. Some say it was actually the second after one of Reagan's inaugurals. Some say it was fourth or so. Some say it's not possible to know.

But Spicer could have believed it. But regardless, the whole thing isn't of anywhere near the importance of the reinstatement of the Mexico City policy which Trump said he would do, and did. Nor is it of the importance of the Keystone Pipeline, renegotiating trade deals, finally doing something real about ISIS, nominating Gorsuch, repealing WOTUS, and many other things.

But I suppose it does give some an opportunity to make a big thing out of a trifle.
  #298  
Old Mar 20, '17, 5:04 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
I don't understand the Costansa comparison. "If you believe it, its not a lie" or something like that. Costanza is still starting with a lie. And you are presuming Trump starts with a lie. I totally disagrer with that assessment'
No I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that lying requires intent, not mere error.
  #299  
Old Mar 20, '17, 5:58 pm
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Michael68 Michael68 is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
No I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that lying requires intent, not mere error.
Sorry man, wrong quote!
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  #300  
Old Mar 20, '17, 6:07 pm
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Michael68 Michael68 is online now
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Default Re: What's YOUR opinion on President Trump?

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Originally Posted by Jig_Saw View Post
What does it say about his supporters that allow him to use the George Costanza excuse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
I don't understand the Costansa comparison. "If you believe it, its not a lie" or something like that. Costanza is still starting with a lie. And you are presuming Trump starts with a lie. I totally disagrer with that assessment'
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