Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Answers--Today > Radio (Catholic Answers Live)
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #31  
Old May 19, '17, 12:06 pm
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,896
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969 View Post
No problem. I guess in relevance to the OP's question though, yes CA Live was spreading disinformation since 73% of abuse victims were not victims that would have fallen under Ephebophilia. Never mind the 19% who were female who would not have fallen under being "homosexual" in nature.
Well, I'm not in Catholic Answers and haven't listened to CAL, as I alluded to earlier, so I don't know if what you're saying is true or not ... but supposing it is true, I guess the question becomes, Wouldn't that be something to take up with them?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old May 19, '17, 12:38 pm
ProdglArchitect ProdglArchitect is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2012
Posts: 5,197
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969 View Post
No problem. I guess in relevance to the OP's question though, yes CA Live was spreading disinformation since 73% of abuse victims were not victims that would have fallen under Ephebophilia. Never mind the 19% who were female who would not have fallen under being "homosexual" in nature.
Well, I don't actually think they've said that it fell under ephebophilia specifically, only that most of the incidents wouldn't qualify as pedophilic, which is true.

They also never denied that there were female victims, but stated, as you have, that they made up the minority of victims.

Based on everything I've ever heard them say (and I listen almost daily), they've not said anything which contradicts what you've said. A couple of individual guests may have used incorrect terminology (such as substituting ephebophilia for hebephila similar to what I was doing), but for the most part they've stated that most incidents were not with pre-pubescent children, and that most victims were male.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old May 19, '17, 1:59 pm
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2010
Posts: 2,327
Religion: Thinking About Catholicism...
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

I think the question that certainly disturbs me, isn't just whether CAL guests made claims that were misinformed. The question then becomes, "Why does it even matter?"

Sadly, the only answer I can think of is, "A pedophile targets young children, who are completely innocent victims. But targeting teenagers is not that bad, because a lot of them are already sexually active they're not innocent in the same way. It's still bad, but not quite as bad".

Much as many people would find it obvious that it's worse to rape a virgin than a promiscuous woman, because raping a virgin means the rapist is committing an additional sin of "robbing them of their innocence", and if the same rapist rapes a promiscuous woman is not guilty of that additional sin.

Not saying I agree with this at all, but why else does this matter? If the idea is to discredit gays, then wouldn't it work better to label the offenders as "gay pedophiles" instead of "gay ephebophiles"?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old May 19, '17, 2:00 pm
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2011
Posts: 4,213
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by at9009 View Post
So let's look at the report. The statistics may be correct but one must consider possible confounding variables first. In the demographics of the victims, how many of them were altar servers? I'm willing to bet just in basic demographics, boys around 10-15 are more likely to be altar servers? Statistically, who is less likely to report a sexual assault: it has been shown that boys are less likely to report because of increased perceived shame of being a victim. So with this in mind, is it possible that these perpetrators choose their victims on ease of access and ability to control rather than sexuality? Thus the fact that most victims were males of a certain age thus appearing to be relating to homosexuality could actually be confounded by the demographics of the victims. These perpetrators are predators who would look for the easiest target, I think using them to correlate as typical behavior of a large group of people (gay/ssa people to be precise) as rather uncharitable.
I don't know about back then but now in my area I see more girls as altar servers. But the main problem I see with your analysis is that it assumes a man will just randomly choose a person without regards to sex. If so then the person is a homosexual in as much as he is willing to have sex with someone of the same sex.

I don't know what is typical but I do believe that people who live a homosexual life, to be clear I don't mean SSA people, tend to be a greater risk. I'd say the same of anyone engaged in extremely sinful activities. So it is clear, I think people who are into pornography and masturbation are also more of a risk.
__________________
We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old May 19, '17, 2:10 pm
Padres1969 Padres1969 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2015
Posts: 4,630
Religion: Episcopalian
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeInTheWater View Post
I think the question that certainly disturbs me, isn't just whether CAL guests made claims that were misinformed. The question then becomes, "Why does it even matter?"

Sadly, the only answer I can think of is, "A pedophile targets young children, who are completely innocent victims. But targeting teenagers is not that bad, because a lot of them are already sexually active they're not innocent in the same way. It's still bad, but not quite as bad".

Much as many people would find it obvious that it's worse to rape a virgin than a promiscuous woman, because raping a virgin means the rapist is committing an additional sin of "robbing them of their innocence", and if the same rapist rapes a promiscuous woman is not guilty of that additional sin.

Not saying I agree with this at all, but why else does this matter? If the idea is to discredit gays, then wouldn't it work better to label the offenders as "gay pedophiles" instead of "gay ephebophiles"?
Exactly. Sexual abuse by clergy of a 16 year old is equally as bad as sexual abuse of a 10 year old. They're both abuse of a minor. They're both morally abhorrent. They're both a crime.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old May 19, '17, 2:20 pm
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2010
Posts: 2,327
Religion: Thinking About Catholicism...
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969 View Post
Exactly. Sexual abuse by clergy of a 16 year old is equally as bad as sexual abuse of a 10 year old. They're both abuse of a minor. They're both morally abhorrent. They're both a crime.
I do think the term "pedophile" has a certain connotation that carries much more stigma than "hebephile" or "ephebophile". Indeed, in retrospect my own post about this tends to betray my own prejudices with my assumption that labeling a priest as a "gay pedophile" sounds worse than "gay ephebophile".

I also recall Duggar bashers being quick to label Josh Duggar a pedophile, and conversely, Duggar fans trying very hard to claim he wasn't, though this was hard to do when his youngest victim was only 5 years old. Though I think some of the arguments was that technically if the perpetrator is himself a minor he cannot be labeled a pedophile, but that if he had been, say 22 at the time the label might fit.

I have also seen sexual abuse of teenage boys by adult women to be treated as "obviously" not as bad as the sexual abuse of teenage girls by adult men, with the same assumption, that a teenage boy is "obviously" less innocent of sexual matters than a teenage girl.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old May 19, '17, 3:32 pm
StudentMI's Avatar
StudentMI StudentMI is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2013
Posts: 3,001
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeInTheWater View Post
I think the question that certainly disturbs me, isn't just whether CAL guests made claims that were misinformed. The question then becomes, "Why does it even matter?"

Sadly, the only answer I can think of is, "A pedophile targets young children, who are completely innocent victims. But targeting teenagers is not that bad, because a lot of them are already sexually active they're not innocent in the same way. It's still bad, but not quite as bad".

Much as many people would find it obvious that it's worse to rape a virgin than a promiscuous woman, because raping a virgin means the rapist is committing an additional sin of "robbing them of their innocence", and if the same rapist rapes a promiscuous woman is not guilty of that additional sin.

Not saying I agree with this at all, but why else does this matter? If the idea is to discredit gays, then wouldn't it work better to label the offenders as "gay pedophiles" instead of "gay ephebophiles"?
I agree one hundred percent. It irks me when the Catholic League does this to no end.
__________________
"There is no length to which He will not go, no depth to which He will not descend, to win the love of your heart and mine." -- Fr. Leo Clifford, O.F.M.

Fr. Jacques Hamel 1930 - 2016.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old May 19, '17, 3:36 pm
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2010
Posts: 2,327
Religion: Thinking About Catholicism...
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StudentMI View Post
I agree one hundred percent. It irks me when the Catholic League does this to no end.
I think the underlying vibe I get from this kind of attempt at defending the Church, is that "what happened was mostly just about gay priests giving into their lusts, not the priests abusing their power over minors".

This assumption about the nature of sexual abuse, that it's all about lust, not about an abuse of power, is so off the mark, whatever the official labels we put on them, that it really makes me wonder if they really get it, as to why this scandal drove so many people away from the Church.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old May 19, '17, 3:39 pm
StudentMI's Avatar
StudentMI StudentMI is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2013
Posts: 3,001
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeInTheWater View Post
I think the underlying vibe I get from this kind of attempt at defending the Church, is that "what happened was mostly just about gay priests giving into their lusts, not the priests abusing minors they had authority over". This assumption about the nature of sexual abuse, is so off the mark, whatever the official labels we put on them, that it really makes me wonder if they really get it, as to why this scandal drove so many people away from the Church.
In my opinion, they don't get it. And likely never will. The same goes for the extreme conservatives.

The same goes for the rejection of the word 'gay' in favor of SSA. No one outside a small circle of Catholics uses that term. All it does is shut off dialogue that could be use for the good of both sides. I'm gay and Catholic and I'm chaste. I use that word because that is what it denotes. SSA is just a linguistic trick. And it will never catch on. And sadly those who push for the term SSA will never see why. They'll just nitpick and talk about the world falling into sin.
__________________
"There is no length to which He will not go, no depth to which He will not descend, to win the love of your heart and mine." -- Fr. Leo Clifford, O.F.M.

Fr. Jacques Hamel 1930 - 2016.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old May 19, '17, 3:53 pm
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2010
Posts: 2,327
Religion: Thinking About Catholicism...
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StudentMI View Post
In my opinion, they don't get it. And likely never will. The same goes for the extreme conservatives.

The same goes for the rejection of the word 'gay' in favor of SSA. No one outside a small circle of Catholics uses that term. All it does is shut off dialogue that could be use for the good of both sides. I'm gay and Catholic and I'm chaste. I use that word because that is what it denotes. SSA is just a linguistic trick. And it will never catch on. And sadly those who push for the term SSA will never see why. They'll just nitpick and talk about the world falling into sin.
Actually, some conservative evangelicals use the term SSA as well, that's where I first came across the term. In those circles, the differentiation of the temptation and the behavior is likely more important, as many are eager to state "all who even are tempted to commit this disgusting sin are destined for Hell, the only hope is to pray to God for a miraculous healing, gay people can never get to heaven, unless they become straight".

And while some have critiqued Courage for not completely breaking ties with the "ex-gay" movement, at least they do not go as far as to teach this is the ONLY way for a gay person to be saved.

It does seem that the "SSA" term is unique to Christians in the US, though. The Pope himself has spoken about "gay people" and the need to be compassionate to them.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old May 19, '17, 4:07 pm
Seamus L Seamus L is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2007
Posts: 7,658
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Which specific Protestant churches teach that even being tempted to commit homosexual acts is a sin ?
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old May 19, '17, 4:26 pm
Lion IRC's Avatar
Lion IRC Lion IRC is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 1, 2013
Posts: 1,796
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969 View Post
Exactly. Sexual abuse by clergy of a 16 year old is equally as bad as sexual abuse of a 10 year old. They're both abuse of a minor. They're both morally abhorrent. They're both a crime.
Indeed!
So why all this equivocation about the nuances of which type of man is attracted to which type of child? Pubescent, pre-pubescent, teen, pre-teen...

Whether or not they are masquerading as priests does not change the fact that these acts against minors are (generally) illegal and emphatically immoral.

Having said that, there is only one group in society AFAICT that consistently pushes the
boundaries of informed consent. And it's the LGBTQI lobby which constantly bombards school age kids (eg. young boys) with the message that's it's OK to be sexually attracted to people of the same gender.
__________________
About me;
- Not a theologian.
- Not a priest.
- Trying hard to tame my inner Boanerges.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old May 19, '17, 4:37 pm
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,896
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StudentMI View Post
In my opinion, they don't get it. And likely never will. The same goes for the extreme conservatives.

The same goes for the rejection of the word 'gay' in favor of SSA. No one outside a small circle of Catholics uses that term. All it does is shut off dialogue that could be use for the good of both sides. I'm gay and Catholic and I'm chaste. I use that word because that is what it denotes. SSA is just a linguistic trick. And it will never catch on. And sadly those who push for the term SSA will never see why. They'll just nitpick and talk about the world falling into sin.
I'd like to make a little confession ...

14 or 15 years ago when the Episcopal Church consecrated Bp. Robinson, I would become quite exasperated by people saying "Conservatives don't like that because he's openly gay" and would reply "No! It's because he's actively gay!"

I think I was justified being annoyed by what was clearly a misrepresentation of conservative thought (i.e. I would never tell gay people that they can't come out of the closet, that's their choice to make), but I now regret that I used the phrase "actively gay" to indicate that a gay person was sexually active, when I would never use "actively straight" to indicate that a straight person was sexually active.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old May 19, '17, 4:57 pm
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,896
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
You make a very good point.

I think I should clarify my own: my "gay Muslims being killed by other gay Muslims" comment was meant satirically. I think people on all sides of the issues can be prone to see a perpetrator as someone-not-like-me so to speak. (Witness the supposed "USA Crime Statistics" that said that black people commit 81% of murders of white people and 97% of murderers of black people -- which was retweeted by a man who later became President of the United States.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeInTheWater View Post
Oops, sorry for not realizing that. I think I've gotten too used to people on CAF stating such things (usually to excuse away hate crimes against Muslims as just false flag attacks) and actually meaning it 100%.
Well that's an easy apology to accept (if it was even needed at all).

If there's one thing I've found in my years on CAF, it's that there are posts that are meant seriously but sound eerily like an over-the-top parody of conservatism. The good thing about CAF, as you may have heard me say before, is that it gives us the option to respond with action (I.e. using the Ignore feature) rather than with words (which all to often just give the offending post a larger audience).
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old May 19, '17, 4:58 pm
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2010
Posts: 2,327
Religion: Thinking About Catholicism...
Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L View Post
Which specific Protestant churches teach that even being tempted to commit homosexual acts is a sin ?
Other than the WBC, you mean? Well I can't come up with a church right now, but I can give you at least one Protestant who states that even "same sex attraction" is itself a sin:

https://cbmw.org/uncategorized/studi...sinful-desire/

Quote:
There is thus a fundamental difference between opposite-sex attraction and same-sex attraction. One has a proper outlet; the other does not. One is acceptable if consecrated to God and not allowed to manifest in lust; the other is never acceptable. Thus we come to an important conclusion: if the object of the desire is wrong, then the desire is wrong. It is not only wrong to physically engage in homosexual acts, but to desire them. Homosexual conduct is univocally considered immoral in Scripture (see Genesis 19; Lev 18:22; Deut 23:17–18; Rom 1:26–27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10). There is no deviance from this portrait. If it is wrong to physically commit a homosexual act, it can only be wrong to desire that act. There is no God-glorifying outlet for a desire that fails to honor God.

It may be that such desires are few and fleeting or that they constitute a regular pattern. The frequency or the intensity of same-sex desire is not the issue. It is the experience of same-sex desire just like the experience of heterosexual lust or unrighteous anger in one’s heart that calls for confession and repentance on the believer’s heart. The term “orientation” cannot thus absolve a person from their moral duties before the Lord. If it refers to a pattern of illicit sexual attraction, then it demands a consequent pattern of Godward confession and repentance.
He bases this conclusion essentially on a Calvinist "total depravity" template.

Denny Burk also thinks SSA itself is sinful:

http://www.canonandculture.com/is-ho...tation-sinful/

Quote:
My conclusion is that if sexual orientation is one’s enduring pattern of sexual attraction, then the Bible teaches both same-sex behavior and same-sex orientation to be sinful. If this is true, there are numerous pastoral implications. I will mention just two:

1. This truth ought to inform how brothers and sisters in Christ wage war against same-sex attraction. Sin is not merely what we do. It is also who we are. As so many of our confessions have it, we are sinners by nature and by choice. All of us are born with an orientation toward sin in all its varieties. Homosexual orientation is but one manifestation of our common experience of indwelling sin—indeed of the mind set on the flesh (Rom. 7:23; 8:7). For that reason, the Bible teaches us to war against both the root and the fruit of sin. In this case, homosexual orientation is the root, and homosexual behavior is the fruit. The Spirit of God aims to transform both (Rom. 8:13).

If same-sex attraction were morally benign, there would be no reason to repent of it. But the Bible never treats sexual attraction to the same sex as a morally neutral state. Jesus says all sexual immorality is fundamentally a matter of the heart. Thus it will not do simply to avoid same sex behavior. The ordinary means of grace must be aimed at the heart as well. Prayer, the preaching of the word, and the fellowship of the saints must all be aimed at the Holy Spirit’s renewal of the inner man (2 Cor. 4:16). It is to be a spiritual transformation that puts to death the deeds of the body by a daily renewal of the mind (Rom. 8:13; 12:2). As John Owen has famously said, “Be killing sin or it will be killing you.”

This is not to say that Christians who experience same-sex attraction will necessarily be freed from those desires completely in this life. Many such Christians report partial or complete changes in their orientation after conversion—sometimes all at once, but more often over a period of months and years. But those cases are not the norm. There are a great many who also report ongoing struggles with same-sex attraction. But that does not lessen the responsibility for them to fight those desires as long as they persist, no matter how natural those desires may feel.
Now to be fair I found these guys through Spiritual Friendship and much of their output is dedicated at quashing these notions, and they may not exactly be "mainstream" but they are out there.

ETA: I did revise the quote from Burk to remove footnote references that were cluttering things.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Answers--Today > Radio (Catholic Answers Live)

Bookmarks

Tags
apologetics, john jay report, pedophilia, scandal, sexual abuse

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6545CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: njlisa
6076Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: hazcompat
5132Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4620Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4263Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
4053OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3290For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2820Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: Mary Virginia
2447SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:14 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.