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  #106  
Old Jun 21, '17, 9:58 am
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by inocente View Post
You've been arguing for several days now that I should ignore all bible scholars, apologists and theologians, and instead accept your personal interpretation of Gen 1 based on a few short quotes you yourself selected from a couple of scientists, who don't even mention the scripture. As I said, if you want to ignore your Church and go your own way, by all means knock yourself out, but your technique for interpreting scripture seems to be your own invention, and then some, and I decline to join you, thanks all the same.
You might want to ask yourself if everything you said above can be said about you.

Isn't that the essence of Protestant theology, private interpretation, which means there is no authority but yourself?


2 Peter 3:16 ► King James Version (I assume Baptist are good with this version)

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

That is Peter, the first pope, speaking. How do you get a higher authority on interpreting scripture??
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Thomas Aquinas
"We must love those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. Both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."


“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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  #107  
Old Jun 22, '17, 2:37 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
You might want to ask yourself if everything you said above can be said about you.

Isn't that the essence of Protestant theology, private interpretation, which means there is no authority but yourself?


2 Peter 3:16 ► King James Version (I assume Baptist are good with this version)

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

That is Peter, the first pope, speaking. How do you get a higher authority on interpreting scripture??
I prefer the NIV:
"His [Paul's] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Note Peter doesn't say that a bumper sticker magically makes someone right. He says those who distort scripture do so "to their own destruction". I'm not the one who is going against bible scholars, apologists and theologians to make his own personal interpretation using the selected opinions of a few scientists. You are.

Peter goes on:
"Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."
And like I said, being on my guard, I decline to join you, thanks all the same.
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Faith, hope, love - Are the sum of perfection on earth; love alone is the sum of perfection in heaven. Wesley's Notes on 1 Cor 13:13
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  #108  
Old Jun 22, '17, 7:37 am
thinkandmull thinkandmull is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Couple questions:

1) how many different definitions are there for the multiverse? It seems to be used in different waves

2) when they say particles can act like waves, this is, without having a direct locality, can't we just respond "the locality is under your microscope silly!" I don't understand the idea of something having an indistinct location
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  #109  
Old Jun 22, '17, 8:36 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkandmull View Post
Couple questions:

1) how many different definitions are there for the multiverse? It seems to be used in different waves

2) when they say particles can act like waves, this is, without having a direct locality, can't we just respond "the locality is under your microscope silly!" I don't understand the idea of something having an indistinct location
At very small scales, matter and light don't behave like anything we experience. Sometimes they behave like water waves or air waves. But other times they behave like bullets or pool balls. The best description I've seen is from an old Feynman lecture - http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/III_01.html.

That double-slit experiment has been around for a hundred years, and the theory is well-understood.

On the other hand, multiverses are just hypotheses, and there are lots of them - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
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Faith, hope, love - Are the sum of perfection on earth; love alone is the sum of perfection in heaven. Wesley's Notes on 1 Cor 13:13
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  #110  
Old Jun 22, '17, 9:15 am
ThinkingSapien's Avatar
ThinkingSapien ThinkingSapien is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkandmull View Post
1) how many different definitions are there for the multiverse? It seems to be used in different waves
I don't remember the exact count. Usually though when ever I see a discussion in these forums on a scientific publication and the multiverse the discussion here invokes a different usage than what was in the paper. In a recent discussion when I found the original publication behind the discussion the paper was talking about areas of the universe cut off from interacting with each other due to distance while the thread was criticizing a usage that was never invoked in the paper.
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  #111  
Old Jun 22, '17, 6:02 pm
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by inocente View Post
I prefer the NIV:
"His [Paul's] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Note Peter doesn't say that a bumper sticker magically makes someone right. He says those who distort scripture do so "to their own destruction". I'm not the one who is going against bible scholars, apologists and theologians to make his own personal interpretation using the selected opinions of a few scientists. You are.

Peter goes on:
"Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."
And like I said, being on my guard, I decline to join you, thanks all the same.
You still haven't identified the source of your authority for interpreting scripture. You seem to have none but your own. You have no infallibility such as the Church has. You have no catechism, such as the Church has. You have no 2000 years of profound Baptist theological writings to draw upon. Yet you are willing to deny others, including scientists, the right to assert their own interpretation based not on scripture even, but on their own reasoning powers that lead them inexorably to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being who has designed and created and sustains the universe, all the way from Newton to Einstein.

What is your problem, anyway?

What is your greatest objection to anything I have said in this or any other thread?

That God designed the universe?

If he did not design it, how did we get where we are?

And why are we so full of compulsion to believe that he has a plan and we are part of the plan?

Do you think God just plays dice with the universe to amuse himself?
__________________
Thomas Aquinas
"We must love those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. Both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."


“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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  #112  
Old Jun 23, '17, 2:31 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
You still haven't identified the source of your authority for interpreting scripture. You seem to have none but your own. You have no infallibility such as the Church has. You have no catechism, such as the Church has. You have no 2000 years of profound Baptist theological writings to draw upon. Yet you are willing to deny others, including scientists, the right to assert their own interpretation based not on scripture even, but on their own reasoning powers that lead them inexorably to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being who has designed and created and sustains the universe, all the way from Newton to Einstein.

What is your problem, anyway?


Currently I use bible scholars, theologians and apologists, including Catholic, and the Holy Spirit to read Genesis.

Then a guy on the internet tells me no that's all wrong, ignore all of them, for really Genesis is a (not very good) science book, and must be interpreted using opinions he himself has selected from scientists, that are not even about scripture and mostly not even theists.

And I've said no thanks, but he won't accept that no means no. That's my problem.

Quote:
What is your greatest objection to anything I have said in this or any other thread?

That God designed the universe?

If he did not design it, how did we get where we are?

And why are we so full of compulsion to believe that he has a plan and we are part of the plan?

Do you think God just plays dice with the universe to amuse himself?
My greatest objection?

Since I've joined CAF, I've talked to a number of posters who developed their own theories. One tried to get me to accept that God is made of 50% consciousness and 50% dark energy. Another that time is both analog and digital. Another decided he is God and no one else exists outside his imagination.

And a guy who says Genesis must be interpreted using a 1980's TV show script and a few selected opinions of a few scientists.

I suggest that if he stopped using them as authorities, and instead listened to bible scholars, theologians and apologists, then that would challenge his theory. But if he wants to continue down his path, fine but I won't join him since I have been forewarned to be on my guard so that I may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from my secure position.

I'm doing exactly as 1 Pet 3 counsels me. The other guy isn't.

As this is off-topic and no means no, you have the last word on it.
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  #113  
Old Jun 23, '17, 12:53 pm
thinkandmull thinkandmull is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

What does it mean when they say a particle acts like a wave. An ocean wave acts very much like a ball being kicked, same physics. A wave needs locality in order to flow too
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  #114  
Old Jun 23, '17, 4:20 pm
Clevus Clevus is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlemagne III View Post
We all know the universe exists. Some people offer the hypothetical that many universes could co-exist. What concrete proof is there for a multiverse?

Has our universe ever bumped into another one?
You may find interesting Fr. Ripperger's article on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIqi9bcZSBA
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  #115  
Old Jun 23, '17, 5:05 pm
Charlemagne III Charlemagne III is offline
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Join Date: December 18, 2013
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Default Re: Evidence for a Multiverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by inocente View Post


Currently I use bible scholars, theologians and apologists, including Catholic, and the Holy Spirit to read Genesis.

Then a guy on the internet tells me no that's all wrong, ignore all of them, for really Genesis is a (not very good) science book, and must be interpreted using opinions he himself has selected from scientists, that are not even about scripture and mostly not even theists.

And I've said no thanks, but he won't accept that no means no. That's my problem.


My greatest objection?

Since I've joined CAF, I've talked to a number of posters who developed their own theories. One tried to get me to accept that God is made of 50% consciousness and 50% dark energy. Another that time is both analog and digital. Another decided he is God and no one else exists outside his imagination.

And a guy who says Genesis must be interpreted using a 1980's TV show script and a few selected opinions of a few scientists.

I suggest that if he stopped using them as authorities, and instead listened to bible scholars, theologians and apologists, then that would challenge his theory. But if he wants to continue down his path, fine but I won't join him since I have been forewarned to be on my guard so that I may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from my secure position.

I'm doing exactly as 1 Pet 3 counsels me. The other guy isn't.

As this is off-topic and no means no, you have the last word on it.
Instead of answering questions you make vague unsubstantiated charges. so It would be useless to have the last word with you as it would never be the last word.

You still haven't explained the source of your authority except to throw out the Holy Spirit as your source, as if the Holy Spirit visited you regularly and affirmed everything you said.
I believe the Holy Sprit is claimed to be the usual "source" for nearly all protestant apologists, who never seem to notice that the Holy Spirit must be dreadfully confused having spread a thousand different "truths" among a thousand different sects.

"And a guy who says Genesis must be interpreted using a 1980's TV show script and a few selected opinions of a few scientists."

You know, of course, I never said anything of the sort. Science does not decide theological questions. But if a TV script and a few scientists happen to say something consistent with Genesis, why is that a problem for you?

By the way, you have never explained why it is that God never intelligently designed our universe. How would you know that? More inspiration from the Holy Spirit?
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"We must love those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. Both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."


“Thinking against nature, you will become foolish; and persisting you will go insane.” St. Irenaeus
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