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  #31  
Old Apr 22, '17, 10:22 pm
LatinRight LatinRight is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post

That is not to say that
those damned (at the particular judgment) do not accept grace one or more times before their final unrepentence, nor that the saved (at the particular judgement) do not reject grace one or more times before their final repentence. Also there may be a desire to persevere to the end of their life that is lost.

God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

I donít contradict your post Vico, I write this for the benefit of every readers of the CAF.


In the area salvation and spirituality, for our clear understanding, we should never mix together the spiritual actions of the reprobates/Satanís sheep (even we donít know who they are) with Godís children/elect/Christís sheep.


The teaching of the Catholic Church in the area of Godís special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance is clear.


Every elect of God/Christís sheep at their baptism is a receiver of Godís gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and Godís special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of their Salvation/Everlasting Life. Ė Can never fail, no surprises.


If a ďreprobateĒ would have a desire to persevere, he wouldnít be a reprobate but an elect of God/Christís sheep, no real reprobate/Satanís sheep ever has a desire to persevere or desire to go to heaven and to live there forever with God.

Reprobates/Satanís sheep donít believe heaven or hell or persevere, this is the very reason they are reprobates.

There is a lot of confusion around Christian circles about salvation and spirituality, if we are not clear, we cause more confusions.

I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church about Justification/Salvation is the best, we all should know it and present it clearly to others.


God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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  #32  
Old Apr 22, '17, 11:42 pm
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Default Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

As I see it, the primary practical difference between the Catholic and Protestant views on justification is as follows: The Protestant world (huge umbrella) absolutely obsesses (almost to incontinence in a few cases) over justification. All the while claiming it is by faith alone - a doctrine so grossly simplified that it cannot be further reduced. OK, so why the endless debates and continuing obsession over justification - especially if one is sure of their theology? Look at the veritable plethora of YouTube videos regarding justification. Shouldn't it be known and stated once and be over and done with? Unless there is just something about it that seems a little too simple. Like the Epistle of James.

I would venture to guess that the average Catholic almost never thinks about justification. We have Baptism, Confirmation, and for those times when sin separates us from God, the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Sin. Repent. Confess. Be absolved. Simple. No obsession. Pure peace.

I see no easy way of reconciling a constant state of seeming unease - if not actual terror - with Christ's own Sacramental path to peace.
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  #33  
Old Yesterday, 10:46 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PluniaZ View Post
That shows it can have a legal connotation. It does not prove it has a purely legal connotation, which is what you claimed.

That Chrysostom does not view justification as a purely legal matter is evident from his commentary on Romans 3:25:

"So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus"

And again on verse 31:

"What was the object of the Law and what the scope of all its enactments? Why, to make man righteous. But this it had no power to do. For all, it says, have sinned: but faith when it came accomplished it. For when a man is once a believer, he is straightway justified. The intention then of the Law it did establish, and what all its enactments aim after, this has it brought to a consummation. Consequently it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm
Excellent research!

I think the problem here is that Protestants don't understand that righteousness means to be in the state of being willing to obey God. The sin stained state of the soul is not an issue. By the grace of God, the soul can be cleansed here or in Purgatory, given that one possesses the Faith in Christ.

Thus righteousness need not, and in fact, if God can create something something out of nothing, must not, be forensic only.

peace
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  #34  
Old Yesterday, 10:55 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by LatinRight View Post
God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

I donít contradict your post Vico, I write this for the benefit of every readers of the CAF.


In the area salvation and spirituality, for our clear understanding, we should never mix together the spiritual actions of the reprobates/Satanís sheep (even we donít know who they are) with Godís children/elect/Christís sheep.


The teaching of the Catholic Church in the area of Godís special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance is clear.


Every elect of God/Christís sheep at their baptism is a receiver of Godís gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and Godís special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of their Salvation/Everlasting Life. Ė Can never fail, no surprises.


If a ďreprobateĒ would have a desire to persevere, he wouldnít be a reprobate but an elect of God/Christís sheep, no real reprobate/Satanís sheep ever has a desire to persevere or desire to go to heaven and to live there forever with God.

Reprobates/Satanís sheep donít believe heaven or hell or persevere, this is the very reason they are reprobates.

There is a lot of confusion around Christian circles about salvation and spirituality, if we are not clear, we cause more confusions.

I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church about Justification/Salvation is the best, we all should know it and present it clearly to others.


God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
And important to know that we cannot be certain that we have the gift of final perserverence: Council of Trent, Session VI
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
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  #35  
Old Today, 12:11 am
LatinRight LatinRight is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post

And important to know that we cannot be certain that we have the gift of final perserverence: Council of Trent, Session VI
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.


It is also important to know THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL OF ORANGE 529 AD and THE WORD and THE TEACHINGS of the Lord Jesus Christ.




THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL OF ORANGE 529 AD

CANON 5. "Ö For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8) ÖĒ

CANON 18. ďThat grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.Ē


MERIT
Divine reward for the practice of virtue.

"The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but GRACE, which is unmerited, PRECEDES actions in order that ENABLE them to be done."
(Council of Orange 529 AD, Denzinger 388).


Rom.11:5-6 In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if it is by grace then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.



Rom.5:18; ďTherefore, as through one manís offense judgment come to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Manís righteous act the free gift come to all men, resulting in justification of life.Ē


Rom.3:24; ďBeing justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.


THE COUNCIL OF ORANGE (529)
Canon 13. Concerning the restoration of free will.
The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36).


CCC 2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. Ö




THE WORD AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST


John 10:26; (NAV)
But you do not believe because you are not my sheep.


2 Cor.13:5-6; (NAV)
Quote: v. 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.

Test yourselves.

Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in youóunless, of course, you fail the test?

v. 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. End quote.



John 10:27-28; (NAV)
v. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

v. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.



Ephesians 2:8; (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithóand that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

John 5:24; (NKJ)
ďTruly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.Ē

1 John 5:13; (NAV)
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.



John 12:48; (AMP)
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings,
has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.


A question:
Do you believe Vico, anyone has the authority to override the Word of God, nullify the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and to stop us to obey Godís COMMAND given to us in 2 Cor.13:5-6?

You donít need to answer the above question, every elect of God, sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ know the answer of the above question.


God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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  #36  
Old Today, 12:50 am
LatinRight LatinRight is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

God bless every readers of the CAF.


John 5:24; (NKJ)
ďTruly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.Ē

An addition to my post # 35.

We will all stand before the Judgment seat of God described in 1 Cor.3:12-15, but our salvation as Godís elect is not at stake, only our works is at stake.

God will determine our position and glory in heaven, according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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  #37  
Old Today, 4:56 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinRight View Post
God bless every readers of the CAF.


John 5:24; (NKJ)
ďTruly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.Ē

An addition to my post # 35.

We will all stand before the Judgment seat of God described in 1 Cor.3:12-15, but our salvation as Godís elect is not at stake, only our works is at stake.

God will determine our position and glory in heaven, according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

God bless every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
Of course the Church has rejected both Pelagianism and Semi-pelagianism, but also double predestination (predestinarianism) where God is the cause damnation.

Council of Trent, Session VI:
CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
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  #38  
Old Today, 8:13 am
PolliceVerso PolliceVerso is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by PluniaZ View Post
That shows it can have a legal connotation. It does not prove it has a purely legal connotation, which is what you claimed.

That Chrysostom does not view justification as a purely legal matter is evident from his commentary on Romans 3:25:

"So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus"

And again on verse 31:

"What was the object of the Law and what the scope of all its enactments? Why, to make man righteous. But this it had no power to do. For all, it says, have sinned: but faith when it came accomplished it. For when a man is once a believer, he is straightway justified. The intention then of the Law it did establish, and what all its enactments aim after, this has it brought to a consummation. Consequently it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm
I think you're misreading Chrysostom here. He is saying that we are made righteous in God's eyes because of the righteousness of Christ. He is not saying that we immediately become completely righteous. Really the fact that he says "immediately" goes against your thesis. If we were really made completely righteous as Christ is righteous, then it would be impossible for us to sin. So he must mean a view of Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us for justification.

But besides all that, you have to deal with Paul saying that our faith is "counted" as righteousness, as it was to Abraham (Romans 4). The original Greek has the connotation of a one-way transfer. He isn't saying that justification causes us to become righteous, rather that we are counted as righteous through faith. Yes, the believer becomes righteous through sanctification, which produces good works and obedience through the work of the Holy Spirit, and is just as important as justification (a point Protestants often miss). But in terms of justification in itself, it is a legal term to show how we are acquitted at the last judgment, not how we are made righteous.
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  #39  
Old Today, 8:41 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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  #40  
Old Today, 10:11 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post
I think you're misreading Chrysostom here. He is saying that we are made righteous in God's eyes because of the righteousness of Christ. He is not saying that we immediately become completely righteous. Really the fact that he says "immediately" goes against your thesis. If we were really made completely righteous as Christ is righteous, then it would be impossible for us to sin. So he must mean a view of Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us for justification.

But besides all that, you have to deal with Paul saying that our faith is "counted" as righteousness, as it was to Abraham (Romans 4). The original Greek has the connotation of a one-way transfer. He isn't saying that justification causes us to become righteous, rather that we are counted as righteous through faith. Yes, the believer becomes righteous through sanctification, which produces good works and obedience through the work of the Holy Spirit, and is just as important as justification (a point Protestants often miss). But in terms of justification in itself, it is a legal term to show how we are acquitted at the last judgment, not how we are made righteous.
Let's use Chrysostom's own words:

"For reflect how great a thing it is to be persuaded and have full confidence that God is able on a sudden not to free a man who has lived in impiety from punishment only, but even to make him just, and to count him worthy of those immortal honors." (Commenting on Romans 4:5).

"For if he be blessed that by grace received forgiveness, much more is he that is made just, and that exhibits faith." (On Romans 4:7)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210208.htm

"For we were at once freed from punishment, and put off all iniquity, and were also born again from above and rose again with the old man buried, and were redeemed, justified, led up to adoption, sanctified, made brothers of the Only-begotten, and joint heirs and of one Body with Him, and counted for His Flesh, and even as a Body with the Head, so were we united unto Him!" (Romans 5:21)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210210.htm

"In like manner it will be no advantage to a Christian to have faith, and the gift of baptism, and yet be open to all the passions." (Romans 6:18)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210210.htm

"Be not a traitor then to so great a gift, but keep guarding this goodly treasure. For in this passage he shows that the Font will not suffice to save us, unless, after coming from it, we display a life worthy of the Gift. And so he again advocates the Law in saying what he does. For when we have once become obedient to Christ, we must use all ways and plans so that its righteousness, which Christ fulfilled, may abide in us, and not come to naught." (Romans 7:4)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210213.htm

"For since it was no natural necessity which put the gift into us, but the freedom of choice placed it in our hands, it rests with you henceforward whether this shall be or the other. For He, on His part, has performed everything. For sin no longer wars against the law of our mind, neither does it lead us away captive as heretofore, for all that state has been ended and broken up, and the affections cower in fear and trembling at the grace of the Spirit. But if you will quench the light, and cast out the holder of the reins, and chase the helmsman away, then charge the tossing thenceforth upon yourself." (Romans 8:7)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210213.htm

"And so if while here thou drive away the grace of the Spirit, and do not depart with it still safe, you will assuredly perish, though thou dost rise again. For as He will not endure then, if He see His Spirit shining in you, to give you up to punishment, so neither will He allow then, if He see It quenched, to bring you into the Bride-chamber, even as He admitted not those virgins." (Romans 8:11)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210213.htm

Now show me any place where Chrysostom, or anyone prior to the Reformation says anything remotely similar to: "Justification is a once for all declaration that a believer will always be viewed as righteous in God's sight, regardless of how the believer lives his life."
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  #41  
Old Today, 10:47 am
PolliceVerso PolliceVerso is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PluniaZ View Post
Let's use Chrysostom's own words:

"For reflect how great a thing it is to be persuaded and have full confidence that God is able on a sudden not to free a man who has lived in impiety from punishment only, but even to make him just, and to count him worthy of those immortal honors." (Commenting on Romans 4:5).

"For if he be blessed that by grace received forgiveness, much more is he that is made just, and that exhibits faith." (On Romans 4:7)


Now show me any place where Chrysostom, or anyone prior to the Reformation says anything remotely similar to: "Justification is a once for all declaration that a believer will always be viewed as righteous in God's sight, regardless of how the believer lives his life."
First of all, you asked me to show you a church father who equated justification with a legal term, not show you a church father who says "a believer will always be viewed as righteous in God's sight, regardless of how the believer lives his life." Let's play by the rules now - that's not the argument I'm making. In fact, if you revisit my original post you'll see that I make the opposite point: how we live our lives is extremely importation for salvation. It is a common Protestant error to believe otherwise.

My point is that the Catholic/Protestant divide on justification is largely due to a difference of terminology, and a misunderstanding - on both sides - of justification. Protestants often believe that a person is justified when they are converted to Christianity, which is not the case. Catholics often believe that justification is something that can be lost and regained, but it cannot. Justification is an eschatological term, meaning it references the imputation of Christ's righteousness at the last judgment. Thus how we live our lives is extremely important: only those who persevere to the end in faith, obedience, and good works will be justified. Those who truly believe (the elect), cannot lost their position of justification (or "state of grace"). But they will also inevitably produce good works and a life of obedience.
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  #42  
Old Today, 10:59 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post
Justification is an eschatological term, meaning it references the imputation of Christ's righteousness at the last judgment. Thus how we live our lives is extremely important: only those who persevere to the end in faith, obedience, and good works will be justified. Those who truly believe (the elect), cannot lost their position of justification (or "state of grace"). But they will also inevitably produce good works and a life of obedience..
Show me anyone, anywhere, prior to the Reformation, who says:

Quote:
Justification is an eschatological term, meaning it references the imputation of Christ's righteousness at the last judgment.
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