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  #151  
Old May 26, '17, 7:08 pm
joeybaggz joeybaggz is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

Oh, one more thing. An earlier poster asked if I believed that nullity should be recognized if spousal abuse occurs 40 years after a marriage due to some condition such as dementia, etc. And a couple of other such questions were raised by the poster.

No I don't. I don't believe such occurrences fall under one big tent. Each instance of such a situation must be examined individually and in such a case, I would agree with "separation with the bond remaining." Nullity is not a one size fits all concept to my way of thinking.
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  #152  
Old May 26, '17, 9:27 pm
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeybaggz View Post
Thanks for that statement, it goes a long way in support of my position throughout this thread. The church has to right to nuance doctrine and dogma, not revise it. Agree 100%.
But is nuance a synonym for interpret? Case in point

A man like myself, a cradle Catholic, believing in the Ten Commandments and the teaching of the RCC as established by Jesus, finds himself in (pick one) Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, etc.) and his job is to kill the enemy. He does so efficiently and in great volume. The only thing that allows him to keep his sanity and soul alive, is the Church's nuanced position that "Thou Shalt Not Kill", can be understood to not be applicable in cases of self-defense or Just War. Even though Jesus said, "love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you" It has not revised or abrogated the doctrine/commandment, Thou Shalt not Kill, it has simply interpreted it in light of a situation in extremis. And I wonder if Jesus did the same thing in the case of divorced women and adultery. That he didn't address.

This thread is "how might the nullity process be improved?"It does seem to me that a number of posters' response is that it is fine as it is, no change is needed. I am tempted to agree with that position, if the "changes" Francis I is advocating in Amoris Laetitia are implemented. I think Francis is trying to reintroduce the internal forum back into the discussion and the practice of examining the validity of marriage.

If not, then let's just agree that the Protestant churches that observe the trinitarian form have, as JPII wrote, the necessary "ingredients" to effect the salvation of their adherents, though not in perfect communion with Rome (not quite verbatim) and are sufficient to care for and bring to eternal life with Christ the thousands of former Catholics that turn their back on the RCC because they want to maintain a relationship with Christ, but cannot do it in the RCC because of its perceived intransigence or lack of mercy given their situation. Though personally, I am open to the possibility that expanding the concept that the inablility or unwillingness to recognize the nature of the sacrament of matrimony and its inherent demands of those entering into it, as an impediment that exists (existed) prior to the marriage vows, ergo, a ruling of nullity is justified. Simply,the parties must know and fully understand and agree to what they are getting into, sacramentally.

And I am not arguing for mercy that ignores truth or that the procedures of the church insofar as they are stringent are wrong, misguided, or callous and cold. It is just that so many people are gravitating to the pentecostal side of the tracks, caused by the current situation in the RCC as it affects so many who are hurting, and through no fault of their own, cannot "prove" their case. I hate to see them go, especially if there is a merciful way to keep them within the fold.

Shalom
According to research done by CARA, something like 85% of divorced Catholics have not applied to a tribunal to review their marriage validity.

Maybe I am hard-nosed; or maybe I just call the facts for what I see. We all know that somewhere around 75% of Catholics do not attend Mass weekly. I don't presume that all those not attending are divorced. but I have enough experience with presenting Catholics Can Return Home programs to know that there are a whole lot of people who "assume" what the Church will or will not do, what it thinks or doesn't think; what it judges or doesn't judge, and they do so absolutely inaccurately.. So I am not particularly interested in laying the problem at the steps of the Church carte blanche.

Somewhere along the line, people need to ask a question, or a bunch of questions. I do not judge their moral status; but I get frustrated with the urban legends and the failure to step forward and ask for help. It is next best impossible to help someone who has turned away with the decision that the Church cannot help them.

Some of it undoubtedly stems from guilt; and I can understand that; but we have a sacrament for that. It is like being sick and walking past the hospital door saying "They can't cure me".

So, to the original question, might the process be improved? Perhaps. But of far greater need is for people to request; to seek healing; to seek resolution. No matter how improved the process might be, if people are convinced they cannot be helped by it, it won't matter. A process unapplied is no process whatsoever.
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  #153  
Old May 27, '17, 6:23 am
Phemie Phemie is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

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Originally Posted by otjm View Post
According to research done by CARA, something like 85% of divorced Catholics have not applied to a tribunal to review their marriage validity.
Is that world-wide or just in the US?

I think it's clear that those for whom it matters seek a decree of nullity. A great many of those who don't couldn't care less about what the status of their marriage is according to the Church. I've had a Catholic say to me "I may one day seek an annulment but not now and in the meantime I'm marrying this guy at the courthouse."

On the other hand I've also experienced priests treat an application with less than the respect it deserved. By their attitudes they pretty much showed what they thought of the need for annulments. The first procrastinated interviewing witnesses and took forever to submit the application. The other prepared the couple for marriage even before the Tribunal had issued the first notice, and when the notice from the national Tribunal (second instance) didn't arrive in time, the first attended their civil marriage and gave them a public blessing. What message did that send to their friends who knew the situation? No annulment? NO PROBLEM!
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  #154  
Old May 27, '17, 10:12 am
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phemie View Post
Is that world-wide or just in the US?

I think it's clear that those for whom it matters seek a decree of nullity. A great many of those who don't couldn't care less about what the status of their marriage is according to the Church. I've had a Catholic say to me "I may one day seek an annulment but not now and in the meantime I'm marrying this guy at the courthouse."

On the other hand I've also experienced priests treat an application with less than the respect it deserved. By their attitudes they pretty much showed what they thought of the need for annulments. The first procrastinated interviewing witnesses and took forever to submit the application. The other prepared the couple for marriage even before the Tribunal had issued the first notice, and when the notice from the national Tribunal (second instance) didn't arrive in time, the first attended their civil marriage and gave them a public blessing. What message did that send to their friends who knew the situation? No annulment? NO PROBLEM!
United States.

Priests are people, and like all other people, are subject to opinions. That is not to justify the matters you remark about, and most priests I have met (over 7 decades) are trying to do the work of the Church as they best understand it. Even with that, they, like the rest of us, can "fail the mark".
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  #155  
Old May 27, '17, 3:39 pm
joeybaggz joeybaggz is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
According to research done by CARA, something like 85% of divorced Catholics have not applied to a tribunal to review their marriage validity.

Maybe I am hard-nosed; or maybe I just call the facts for what I see. We all know that somewhere around 75% of Catholics do not attend Mass weekly. I don't presume that all those not attending are divorced. but I have enough experience with presenting Catholics Can Return Home programs to know that there are a whole lot of people who "assume" what the Church will or will not do, what it thinks or doesn't think; what it judges or doesn't judge, and they do so absolutely inaccurately.. So I am not particularly interested in laying the problem at the steps of the Church carte blanche.

Somewhere along the line, people need to ask a question, or a bunch of questions. I do not judge their moral status; but I get frustrated with the urban legends and the failure to step forward and ask for help. It is next best impossible to help someone who has turned away with the decision that the Church cannot help them.

Some of it undoubtedly stems from guilt; and I can understand that; but we have a sacrament for that. It is like being sick and walking past the hospital door saying "They can't cure me".

So, to the original question, might the process be improved? Perhaps. But of far greater need is for people to request; to seek healing; to seek resolution. No matter how improved the process might be, if people are convinced they cannot be helped by it, it won't matter. A process unapplied is no process whatsoever.
Good points; well stated.

Shalom
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  #156  
Old May 31, '17, 10:13 am
Elf01 Elf01 is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
Just a few thoughts:

Some have already mentioned to you that the question wasn't the 'sacramentality' of your marriage, but its validity. Unbaptized people can marry validly.


Perhaps. And yet, that would have to be established in a formal case. And, once you're in the "formal case" process, you get all the timeframe woes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dans0622 View Post
Hello,

That is true--marriages in which one party is baptized at the time of the wedding while the other remains unbaptized until the present time can be dissolved by the Holy Father.

However, pursuing such a dissolution is not always the most practical course of action.

Dan
Not really about the nullity process, but if dissolving a non sacramental marriage is so difficult that going through the nullity process is recommended, I think that looking at those may reduce the number of annulment applications. Since the marriages are non sacramental I don't see why dissolving them cannot be simply a divorce cert and proof that one party is not baptized.
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  #157  
Old May 31, '17, 11:10 am
Phemie Phemie is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

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Originally Posted by Elf01 View Post
Not really about the nullity process, but if dissolving a non sacramental marriage is so difficult that going through the nullity process is recommended, I think that looking at those may reduce the number of annulment applications. Since the marriages are non sacramental I don't see why dissolving them cannot be simply a divorce cert and proof that one party is not baptized.
It's not that simple. We mustn't forget that there are two different means of dissolving a natural marriage.

Pauline privilege, when neither was baptized and one becomes a Catholic and seeks to marry, providing that that person was not the one who broke up the marriage. That can be handled at the diocesan level.

Petrine privilege, when only one was Christian at the time of the marriage, and one becomes Catholic and wants to marry, again, providing that person was not the one who broke up the marriage. That has to be handled by Rome.
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  #158  
Old May 31, '17, 12:57 pm
Elf01 Elf01 is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

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Originally Posted by Phemie View Post
It's not that simple. We mustn't forget that there are two different means of dissolving a natural marriage.

Petrine privilege, when only one was Christian at the time of the marriage, and one becomes Catholic and wants to marry, again, providing that person was not the one who broke up the marriage. That has to be handled by Rome.

OK, I see the biblical support for why the Christian party should not be the one who broke up the marriage (or at least should not be allowed to remarry), but I do not see why Petrine privilege needs to be handled by Rome. Would it not be possible to delegate the authority to the diocese for example.
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  #159  
Old May 31, '17, 2:27 pm
Phemie Phemie is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

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Originally Posted by Elf01 View Post
OK, I see the biblical support for why the Christian party should not be the one who broke up the marriage (or at least should not be allowed to remarry), but I do not see why Petrine privilege needs to be handled by Rome. Would it not be possible to delegate the authority to the diocese for example.
There is a major difference.

In the Pauline privilege it is the new marriage that dissolves the old marriage, not the bishop.

In the Petrine privilege it is the Pope who dissolves the marriage. Just like it is the Pope who dissolves an unconsummated sacramental marriage.
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  #160  
Old May 31, '17, 8:34 pm
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jmcrae jmcrae is offline
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Default Re: How might the nullity process be improved?

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Originally Posted by Elf01 View Post
Not really about the nullity process, but if dissolving a non sacramental marriage is so difficult that going through the nullity process is recommended, I think that looking at those may reduce the number of annulment applications. Since the marriages are non sacramental I don't see why dissolving them cannot be simply a divorce cert and proof that one party is not baptized.
Neither Adam nor Eve were baptized; nor was their union witnessed by a priest, but for all of our sakes I certainly hope it was a valid marriage!
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