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  #1  
Old Oct 28, '06, 10:23 am
USMC USMC is offline
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Default About “pro multis”

The following was written by Fr. John T. Zuhlsdorf.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2006/10/about-pro-multis/
10-28-06

[i]"Three different well-placed sources I trust in Congregations here in Rome confirmed for me that the Holy Father made the determination that the words pro multis in the consecration of the Precious Blood will be properly translated, "for many", in the upcoming English text now in preparation. I had reason to be optimistic about this quite some time ago, but these confirmations go far beyond previous news.

Ever since Pope Paul VI, the Pontiff reserves to himself the approval of all sacramental forms in vernacular versions. Only Pope Benedict can make this decision.

WDTPRS has been hammering this for years, working as a lobby precisely for this, which is the single most important translation issue that had to be resolved. The WDTPRS articles have been used by members of the Vox Clara Committee, bandied about in Congregations, and even read by the Holy Father before his election. In the articles I urged readers to write respectful and brief letters about this issue to members of the Committee and prefects of Congregations. They did and I saw copies of their letters and the nice responses they received in return. The articles kept supplying ammunition during the war over the translation. ....(more}



It is evident that our new Pope is trying his best to reverse this .....He needs our prayers because surely the liberals will resist these efforts.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 30, '06 at 12:39 am. Reason: ADDED LINK/EDITED TEXT
  #2  
Old Oct 28, '06, 10:34 am
VociMike VociMike is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

What is WDTPRS?

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 5:19 pm. Reason: THREAD TITLE AMENDED
  #3  
Old Oct 28, '06, 10:56 am
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

For years, the official sacramental formula in English said "for all men".

I have seen numerous Sacramentaries where the "men" was crossed out in pencil before it was officially removed, and heard bishops omit it as well.

"Pro multis" in Latin does not mean "for all".

It's a mistranslation that has PROFOUND theological and doctrinal implications. Profound.

The worst student in high school Latin I would know "pro multis" means "for many", not "for all".

It was mistranslated deliberately, and Rome has allowed the mistranslation for over 30 years.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 6:04 pm. Reason: OFF TOPIC REMARKS EXCISED
  #4  
Old Oct 28, '06, 11:00 am
ComradeAndrei ComradeAndrei is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

Quote:
I see this as a real benchmark. Pope Benedict acts decisively once he has thought something through. He is interested in a new kind of dialogue, even ecumenical dialogue, based on accurate and forthright expressions of what we believe as a Church. The choice to say "for many" rather than "for all" indicates a serious shift of approach on many levels. It seems to me that the days of overly careful political correctness are done, at least in some spheres of the Church’s activity.
Gloria in excelsis Deo!

I'll have to see if my people in Roma know anything about this...
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"Though St. John the Evangelist saw many strange monsters in his vision, he saw no creature so wild as one of his own commentators"-G. K. Chesterton

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 5:23 pm. Reason: THREAD TITLE AMENDED
  #5  
Old Oct 28, '06, 11:04 am
cheese_sdc cheese_sdc is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexV View Post
Excuse me, Thistle.

For years, the official sacramental formula in English said "for all men".

I have seen numerous Sacramentaries where the "men" was crossed out in pencil before it was officially removed, and heard bishops omit it as well.

"Pro multis" in Latin does not mean "for all".

It's a mistranslation that has PROFOUND theological and doctrinal implications. Profound.

The worst student in high school Latin I would know "pro multis" means "for many", not "for all".

It was mistranslated deliberately, and Rome has allowed the mistranslation for over 30 years.
May I suggest that you read the "Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions" (Vatican II post-conciliar document). It is quite short and very illuminating.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 6:07 pm. Reason: EDITED BACKQUOTE
  #6  
Old Oct 28, '06, 11:14 am
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

I have read Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 6:08 pm. Reason: OFF TOPIC REMARKS EXCISED
  #7  
Old Oct 28, '06, 11:30 am
Jakub Jakub is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

WDTPRS = what does the prayer really say...a comparison of the Latin and the ICEL translation...worth reading it is quite enlightening...

http://wdtprs.com/blog/

james
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Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 5:27 pm. Reason: THREAD TITLE AMENDED
  #8  
Old Oct 28, '06, 12:04 pm
VociMike VociMike is offline
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Default Re:About “pro multis”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakub View Post
WDTPRS = what does the prayer really say...a comparison of the Latin and the ICEL translation...worth reading it is quite enlightening...

http://wdtprs.com/blog/

james
Ahh, thanks for the pointer.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 5:29 pm. Reason: THREAD TITLE AMENDED
  #9  
Old Oct 28, '06, 1:36 pm
USMC USMC is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

EDIT

I really think our new Pope is doing his best to correct the mess the Church is in, but is proceeding slowly. It reminds me of the vision of St. John Bosco, who saw the Pope "straining every muscle" to direct the Church. I think that is the situation our current Pope finds himself in.

EDIT

The pro multis mistranslation was not a small thing. In addition to not being the words our Lord used, if you read what the Catechism of Trent said those words refer to (those who will actually be saved), mistranslating them as "for all" teaches universal salvation, since, according to the meaning of those words as interpreted by the Catechism of Trent, it means that all, not just many, will be saved. John Paul II may have believed in the error of universal salvation but it is false (and yes, John Paul II not only questioned whether anyone was in hell, but also taught universal salvation by name).

And if you believe what the Council of Florence taught when it defined the words of consecration - that if anyone changed any of the words, and if the new word did not mean what the original word meant, then consecration would not take place - the implications are even more serious. Because, who will claim that many means all? And if all and many don't mean the same thing, then, according to the Council of Florence (not USMC) the New Mass is invalid, and the prophecy from the book of Daniel has come to pass:

Daniel: "And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice, because of sins: and truth shall be cast down on the ground (Daniel 8:11-12) ... they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation (Daniel 11:31).

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 6:21 pm. Reason: MATL OFF TOPIC OF PRO MULTI EXCISED
  #10  
Old Oct 28, '06, 2:35 pm
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

And translating "pro multis" as "for all" (which I note nobody has tried to defend) for over 30 years is a danger to the faith.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 6:29 pm. Reason: EXCISED MATL OFF TOPIC OF PRO MULTIS
  #11  
Old Oct 28, '06, 2:52 pm
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

I'd rather have someone start answering questions that have long been asked and never answered:

) How can a mistranslation of a sacramental formula be introduced and tolerated for over 30 years?

Just how far does obedience go?

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 7:08 pm. Reason: EXCISED MATL OFF PRO MULTIS TOPIC
  #12  
Old Oct 28, '06, 2:58 pm
Stu Stu is offline
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Default Re:About “pro multis”

Alex,

I would submit 30 years given the life of the Church isn't really that long. As the faithful, we of course are obligated to speak up but as with all things HOW we speak up can be just as important as what we are speaking up about. Change the course of the Church is like changing the course of an aircraft carrier. It's slow and takes time

I pray that the mistranslation will in fact be corrected.

Vivat Iesus,

Stu
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Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 7:10 pm. Reason: AMENDED TITLE
  #13  
Old Oct 28, '06, 3:01 pm
CantorRick CantorRick is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexV View Post
And translating "pro multis" as "for all" (which I note nobody has tried to defend) for over 30 years is a danger to the faith.
I have already said accuracy in translation is essential
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Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 7:09 pm. Reason: EXCISED RFERENCES TO EDITED MATL
  #14  
Old Oct 28, '06, 3:10 pm
bear06 bear06 is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

Quote:
I really think our new Pope is doing his best to correct the mess the Church is in, but is proceeding slowly. It reminds me of the vision of St. John Bosco, who saw the Pope "straining every muscle" to direct the Church. I think that is the situation our current Pope finds himself in.
Actually I think it's the situation at least our last 6 popes found themselves in.


Quote:
The pro multis mistranslation was not a small thing. In addition to not being the words our Lord used,
i
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ZLITUR46.HTM
__________________
Trust but verify - especially on these forums!

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 7:04 pm. Reason: EXCISED REFERENCE MATL ALREADY EDITED
  #15  
Old Oct 28, '06, 7:08 pm
Dr. Bombay Dr. Bombay is offline
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Default Re: About “pro multis”

And to answer AlexV's question:

How can a mistranslation of a sacramental formula be introduced and tolerated for over 30 years? I'm thinking it must be modernism infiltrating the highest levels of our Church.

Last edited by Marian Carroll; Oct 29, '06 at 7:00 pm. Reason: EXCISED SMART REMARKS & REF TO DELETED TEXT
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