Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Nov 29, '06, 6:26 pm
tonyg tonyg is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Posts: 413
Religion: Catholic
Default Heaven or Limbo?

I was asked a question, if my four siblings that my mother miscarried went to Heaven or Limbo.
I will answer the question this way. When Almighty God ends this earthly journey of mine, I will most likely take a detour to purgatory for some time.
When He calls me home to Heaven, my siblings will be there to welcome me home.
Our God, is a God of love & mercy. If He can forgive a sinner like me, anything is possible.
Any child that died without being Baptized, whether being aborted, or miscarried, in my opinion will be welcomed home to Heaven, to be with our God for all eternity.
This is truly a mystery of our faith. In my heart, I believe this to be true.

God Bless, Tonyg
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Nov 29, '06, 6:49 pm
AussieCatholic AussieCatholic is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Posts: 18
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg View Post
I was asked a question, if my four siblings that my mother miscarried went to Heaven or Limbo.
I will answer the question this way. When Almighty God ends this earthly journey of mine, I will most likely take a detour to purgatory for some time.
When He calls me home to Heaven, my siblings will be there to welcome me home.
Our God, is a God of love & mercy. If He can forgive a sinner like me, anything is possible.
Any child that died without being Baptized, whether being aborted, or miscarried, in my opinion will be welcomed home to Heaven, to be with our God for all eternity.
This is truly a mystery of our faith. In my heart, I believe this to be true.

God Bless, Tonyg
I can understand your desire to be with your siblings in heaven. But if you were to go to heaven and they weren’t there would you be upset? of course not, because its impossible to feel anything but complete joy in heaven.

The existence of Limbo in no way diminishes the perfect love of God.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Nov 29, '06, 7:01 pm
ribozyme ribozyme is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 11, 2006
Posts: 3,377
Religion: godless liberal
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg View Post
I was asked a question, if my four siblings that my mother miscarried went to Heaven or Limbo.
I will answer the question this way. When Almighty God ends this earthly journey of mine, I will most likely take a detour to purgatory for some time.
When He calls me home to Heaven, my siblings will be there to welcome me home.
Our God, is a God of love & mercy. If He can forgive a sinner like me, anything is possible.
Any child that died without being Baptized, whether being aborted, or miscarried, in my opinion will be welcomed home to Heaven, to be with our God for all eternity.
This is truly a mystery of our faith. In my heart, I believe this to be true.

God Bless, Tonyg
I thank you for your candidness.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Nov 30, '06, 3:44 am
tonyg tonyg is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Posts: 413
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieCatholic View Post
I can understand your desire to be with your siblings in heaven. But if you were to go to heaven and they weren’t there would you be upset? of course not, because its impossible to feel anything but complete joy in heaven.

The existence of Limbo in no way diminishes the perfect love of God.
In reply to the question will I be upset if my siblings are not in Heaven:
Not only will my siblings be there, but also every child, that for reasons only known to God, was taken home before birth; and also the countless millions of the Holy Innocents whoes lives were terminated by abortion. Along with the babies killed by
King Herod, when he tried to kill our Lord Jesus Christ. tonyg
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Nov 30, '06, 3:46 am
tonyg tonyg is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Posts: 413
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Then As Now



They placed You there out of fear, knowing fully the division it would bring,

They pierced You through, knowing to, Your power was greater than a king,

You came to call sinners and tell them the news, that there salvation was close at hand,

But then as know they claim these words are those of a foolish man,

The tree You were forced to carry, the tree where you hung and died,

The people spit upon You and thrust a lance into Your side,

Were the pretenses of things to come from that moment to this day,

When innocent ones are terminated in the very same way,

Then as now with a spear they bring silence to the lambs,

Then as now the truth is hidden so many won’t understand,

Then as now we are lied to by those who are in power,

But have no fear; Your love has brought us to this hour,

Change is coming very soon and indeed is already here,

Your people will be freed from all the crosses that they bear,

The reason You came into this world was to free us from within

To set us free so we would flee from and turn away from sin,

Then as now you give wisdom to the lowly and the humble,

They feel Your presence always; You help them when they stumble,

Then as now many are lost who place no trust in You,

Then as now Your love frees and Your love will see us through,


tonyg
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Nov 30, '06, 4:44 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2005
Posts: 3,832
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

There are four possible versions of Limbo:

1. as a fringe or upper level of Purgatory, often called the Limbo of the Fathers
This is implied by Church teaching, but has not been formally defined, so it is subject to the development of doctrine

2. as a fringe or upper level of Hell
This has been taught by the Magisterium (but not infallibly as far as I know).
This is where persons go who have died in a culpable state of original sin, but without other mortal sins.

3. as a third separate place of perfect natural happiness
This idea was condemned by Pope Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei, n. 26.

4. as a fringe of Heaven, such that the souls there would be in Heaven, but without the Beatific Vision
This idea is heretical since it contradicts an infallible papal teaching of Pope Benedict XII, On the Beatific Vision of God.

Prenatals and infants who die without a formal Baptism, in my theological opinion, go to Heaven by way of an upper level of Purgatory. But let me add that I don't see any valid theological argument, speculative or otherwise, which can place prenatals or young children prior to the age of reason anywhere other than Heaven. Even if there is no explicit statement from the Magisterium saying that they go to Heaven, the Faith implicitly, yet with utter clarity, teaches that no other final destination is compatible with the infinite Mercy of God.


Ron Conte
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Nov 30, '06, 6:54 am
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 11,454
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg View Post
In reply to the question will I be upset if my siblings are not in Heaven:
Not only will my siblings be there, but also every child, that for reasons only known to God, was taken home before birth; and also the countless millions of the Holy Innocents whoes lives were terminated by abortion. Along with the babies killed by
King Herod, when he tried to kill our Lord Jesus Christ. tonyg
Most people seeking or performing abortions are not trying to kill Jesus! Children killed by abortion are not martyrs or Holy Innocents. They are murder victims, who died without the possibility of Sacramental Baptism and with Original Sin on their souls.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Nov 30, '06, 7:15 am
thistle thistle is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 23,394
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
There are four possible versions of Limbo:

1. as a fringe or upper level of Purgatory, often called the Limbo of the Fathers
This is implied by Church teaching, but has not been formally defined, so it is subject to the development of doctrine

2. as a fringe or upper level of Hell
This has been taught by the Magisterium (but not infallibly as far as I know).
This is where persons go who have died in a culpable state of original sin, but without other mortal sins.

3. as a third separate place of perfect natural happiness
This idea was condemned by Pope Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei, n. 26.

4. as a fringe of Heaven, such that the souls there would be in Heaven, but without the Beatific Vision
This idea is heretical since it contradicts an infallible papal teaching of Pope Benedict XII, On the Beatific Vision of God.

Prenatals and infants who die without a formal Baptism, in my theological opinion, go to Heaven by way of an upper level of Purgatory. But let me add that I don't see any valid theological argument, speculative or otherwise, which can place prenatals or young children prior to the age of reason anywhere other than Heaven. Even if there is no explicit statement from the Magisterium saying that they go to Heaven, the Faith implicitly, yet with utter clarity, teaches that no other final destination is compatible with the infinite Mercy of God.


Ron Conte
Limbo is not and never has been a doctrine of the Church. It has only been theological speculation.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Nov 30, '06, 11:40 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2005
Posts: 3,832
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Br. Rich SFO View Post
Most people seeking or performing abortions are not trying to kill Jesus! Children killed by abortion are not martyrs or Holy Innocents. They are murder victims, who died without the possibility of Sacramental Baptism and with Original Sin on their souls.
Pope Pius VI and the Council of Florence both taught that those who die with original sin on their souls go to a place in Hell, with lesser sufferings than those who died with a mortal sin of commission on their souls. This is sometimes called (a version of) limbo. Persons who die in a state of original sin go to Hell, according to the teaching of the Church.

The Church also teaches, in Evangelium Vitae (which is cited by the Catechism) that prenatals who die without a formal Baptism may go to Heaven. [But you are saying that they may not.] And though the theology as to how this occurs is speculative, the power and limitless of God's Mercy is not a speculation.

So how can we reconcile these two teachings? Very simply. Prenatals and infants who die at that young age, and without a formal Baptism, must be given a non-formal Baptism by God. Therefore, they do not die with original sin on their souls.

Now if this non-formal Baptism cannot be categorized as a Baptism of blood or of desire, then there must be a third category of non-formal Baptism. The Church has never taught that non-formal Baptism is limited solely to blood and desire.

To hold otherwise is to hold that there is a contradiction in Church teaching.


Ron Conte
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Nov 30, '06, 11:51 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2005
Posts: 3,832
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Limbo is not and never has been a doctrine of the Church. It has only been theological speculation.
Limbo as a third final resting place is mere theological speculation, and this speculation has already been condemned by Pope Pius VI. Limbo as a fringe of Heaven is also erroneous theological speculation.

However the Church has taught a limbo of Hell (for those who die in original sin):

Auctorem Fidei - Pope Pius VI

The Punishment of Those Who Die with Original Sin Only
26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,—false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.

The Council of Florence also taught this doctrine:

“Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Florence, Session 6, July 6th, 1439).

The above teachings are perhaps not infallible, but they are teachings of at least the ordinary Magisterium.

The Church has taught a limbo of the fathers. For example, this doctrine, in at least some form, is necessarily implied by the following teaching:

On the Beatific Vision of God
Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336

By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and see the divine essense with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence . Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.

It cannot be said, generally and without qualification, that the Church has never taught limbo in any form.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Nov 30, '06, 1:38 pm
mosher's Avatar
mosher mosher is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2005
Posts: 2,514
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via AIM to mosher Send a message via Skype™ to mosher
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Thank you Ron as I was going to mention that in response to thistle.

To explain a little further on the manner in which those teachings are be accepted or rejected we must understand the nature of theological speculation.

In common english the term has a bit of a shade of meaning that would cause us to think that it is either a "theological guess" or that it is a "hypothesis" that has been posited. However, in theology the term is much more specific and much more certain than what common English would provide.

Instead of a Hypothesis which must be tested or a guess which is similar it is a logical conclusion. In this case it is the logical conclusion of about four dogmas pertaining to the Sacrament of Baptism, Original Sin and the Nature of God. This investigation leads to the "truth" of the existence of what we call Limbo. Now, this truth must be both tested and verified. In testing over the centuries it has been found to be solid however in the verification is where we lack since we have as yet not found this to be a part of the Sacra Doctrina. Because of this it cannot ascend the ladder of certitude. However, the Church is so certain about it that it has come up in the magisterial documents that Ron has cited. But even there we must remember that in those cases it was primarily a rejection of one position in favor of another without creating "new" doctrine. However, it was the act of the Church saying in effect "this seems to be the correct answer at least more so than any other position at this time."

However, we must remember that the idea of Limbo may very well be in the Sacra Doctrina since many if not all of the Early Church Fathers discussed this issue in both the East and the West. So, it is something that we must be careful to not outright deny but at the same time we can take the sufficiently easy course and "trust in the mercy of God" as the current Catechism states. But remember that even that statement leaves open the possibility to Limbo. I think that as people understand the nature of heaven and hell better the idea of Limbo will not leave as poor of a taste in peoples mouths as it has at some times.
__________________
In SPND,

Fr. Gabriel Thomas Mosher, OP

***Tolerance is the last virtue of a man with no convictions - GK Chesterton***
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Nov 30, '06, 7:29 pm
thistle thistle is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 23,394
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Limbo as a third final resting place is mere theological speculation, and this speculation has already been condemned by Pope Pius VI. Limbo as a fringe of Heaven is also erroneous theological speculation.

However the Church has taught a limbo of Hell (for those who die in original sin):

Auctorem Fidei - Pope Pius VI

The Punishment of Those Who Die with Original Sin Only
26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,—false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.

The Council of Florence also taught this doctrine:

“Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Florence, Session 6, July 6th, 1439).

The above teachings are perhaps not infallible, but they are teachings of at least the ordinary Magisterium.

The Church has taught a limbo of the fathers. For example, this doctrine, in at least some form, is necessarily implied by the following teaching:

On the Beatific Vision of God
Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336

By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and see the divine essense with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence . Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.

It cannot be said, generally and without qualification, that the Church has never taught limbo in any form.


Ron
We are obliged to believe and accept Church doctrine. We have never been obliged to believe and accept Limbo so it cannot have been a Church doctrine.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Nov 30, '06, 8:25 pm
Steve O'Brien Steve O'Brien is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 11, 2004
Posts: 887
Religion: Catholic
Cool Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
We are obliged to believe and accept Church doctrine. We have never been obliged to believe and accept Limbo so it cannot have been a Church doctrine.
What we are obliged to believe as Catholics is the Catholic dogma that the souls of those dying with original sin only are punished for this state of sin in the next world. This dogma was taught by two ecumenical councils: Lyons II in 1274 and Florence in 1439 (old Denzinger numbers 464 and 693).

Please note, too, that Pope Pius XII taught on October 29, 1951, that baptism of desire is not possible for infants.

In the light of the above theological data, limbo--a state of unending, unmerited natural happiness--is a logical, solid deduction, and one necessary for the defense of the dogma of original sin, which is "an essential truth of the faith" (CCC 388).

To say that all unbaptized infants go to heaven is to rip up the entire fabric of Catholic doctrine. These are things that the Catholic Church cannot, and will not, do.

We should all be happy that God, in his love, mercy, and universal salvific will, gives everlasting natural happiness to human beings to whom he is not even obliged, in strict justice, to give existence. Limbo is an example of God's infinite generosity.

It's especially fitting to discuss limbo as we approach the feast of the Immaculate Conception. Without the dogma of original sin, the dogma concerning Mary's sinless conception makes no sense at all.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Nov 30, '06, 8:41 pm
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2005
Posts: 9,364
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

I don't think we can say for sure any individual goes to Hell or Heaven (barring a miraculous revelation) since we cannot pass judgment on anyone's soul.

Yes, all who die in original sin, descend into Hell. But, for all we know, God grants a special grace to cleanse infants of original sin who have no opportunity for Baptism--(like He sanctified Jeremiah in the womb). Since He desires all men to be saved, mustn't it follow that ALL men are offered the opportunity of salvation? Wouldn't it be heretical to say God creates a being that will be excluded from heaven no matter what? Then again, He may not grant such a grace. Some saints have theorized about a vicarious Baptism by desire. I pray for the salvation of infants who die without Baptism--that God grant them the Baptismal grace they need.
__________________
"Let prayer delight thee more than disputations, and the charity which buildeth up more than the knowledge which puffeth up."--St. Robert Bellarmine
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Nov 30, '06, 8:47 pm
namguy69 namguy69 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 24, 2006
Posts: 67
Religion: Christian - Non Catolic
Default Re: Heaven or Limbo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg View Post
I was asked a question, if my four siblings that my mother miscarried went to Heaven or Limbo.
I will answer the question this way. When Almighty God ends this earthly journey of mine, I will most likely take a detour to purgatory for some time.
When He calls me home to Heaven, my siblings will be there to welcome me home.
Our God, is a God of love & mercy. If He can forgive a sinner like me, anything is possible.
Any child that died without being Baptized, whether being aborted, or miscarried, in my opinion will be welcomed home to Heaven, to be with our God for all eternity.
This is truly a mystery of our faith. In my heart, I believe this to be true.

God Bless, Tonyg
I'm very, very sorry to hear about your Mother... My dad died 4 years ago, still have my mom, Thank God.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6597CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6138Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
5162Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4627Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: neweggs
4287Poems and Reflections
Last by: Purgatory Pete
4053OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3290For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2822Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: tawny
2448SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:21 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.