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  #1  
Old Jan 13, '07, 1:32 am
Jasny Jasny is offline
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Default Membership in the Church is not necessary?

On January 9th show. Karel Keating said that membership in the Church was not necessary for salvation. Now I know this is a controversial subject but from my reading it seems that both sides of the debate agree membership is necessary. The question is who or how one becomes a member. It would be good to clearify what he meant.
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Old Jan 13, '07, 6:06 am
strgzr46 strgzr46 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

I am a new convert, but have been studying the Faith for 5+ years. I thought salvation could be available for non-Catholics, but that they would not enjoy the fullness of the faith. Am I wrong???

Floyd
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  #3  
Old Jan 13, '07, 7:26 am
Jasny Jasny is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by strgzr46 View Post
I am a new convert, but have been studying the Faith for 5+ years. I thought salvation could be available for non-Catholics, but that they would not enjoy the fullness of the faith. Am I wrong???

Floyd
thats the controversy. They have to be in some way connected to the Church thats were the mystery comes in.
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  #4  
Old Jan 13, '07, 7:38 am
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FightingFat FightingFat is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by strgzr46 View Post
I am a new convert, but have been studying the Faith for 5+ years. I thought salvation could be available for non-Catholics, but that they would not enjoy the fullness of the faith. Am I wrong???
No you're right. Inclusivist theology proposes that all religions, without knowing it, are moving toward Christianity. It is from this lead that they derive their power to save: they lead to salvation insofar as they carry the mystery of Christ hidden within them [Ratzinger, J: Truth and Tolerance, Ignatius]. There are three approaches to this problem- exclusivism, inclusivism and pluralism. I don't think any theologians today would be exclusivist in their approach.

Vatican II introduced us to the concept of partial communion [see LG8] and I believe we are all drawn to the truth; we must demonstrate our Christianity with our actions and not be content to simply criticise others for not belonging to our club.
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  #5  
Old Jan 13, '07, 9:08 am
MariaG MariaG is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasny View Post
On January 9th show. Karel Keating said that membership in the Church was not necessary for salvation. Now I know this is a controversial subject but from my reading it seems that both sides of the debate agree membership is necessary. The question is who or how one becomes a member. It would be good to clearify what he meant.
Although I did not hear the talk, I think Mr. Keating meant that "official" membership is not necessary, but never meant to imply that one is not in fact saved through the Church, through Christ.

But what Mr. Keating meant was one does not necessarily need to be a card carrying Catholic in order to get to heaven.

I know (At least fairly sure unless he had some kind of brain tumor) he would never deny the teaching that "outside the Church there is no salvation".

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Old Jan 13, '07, 9:50 am
francesco920 francesco920 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

While it is indeed possible that a non-Catholic may be saved, in my opinion we should not be telling people that it is okay not to be Catholic.

I think Karl was referring to people who were ignorant of Catholicism or those who by no fault of their own did not have the opportunity to be Catholic.

Last edited by francesco920; Jan 13, '07 at 10:00 am.
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Old Jan 13, '07, 10:00 am
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mommyof4 mommyof4 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

Maybe Karl would be kind enough to clarify his position on this thread?
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  #8  
Old Jan 13, '07, 10:12 am
jman507 jman507 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by francesco920 View Post
EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

While it is indeed possible that a non-Catholic may be saved, in my opinion we should not be telling people that it is okay not to be Catholic.

I think Karl was referring to people who were ignorant of Catholicism or those who by no fault of their own did not have the opportunity to be Catholic.
Look at it this way, you could tell someone go to Fargo, North Dakota. Someone with out a map, compass, and car, can get there, but I think the tendency is the ones with a map, compass, and car are going to tend to get there a lot easier.

I think it's a bit easier to get to heaven with prayer, the Bible, and the Church. One is better than none, two better than one, but three is the best of all.

Everyone who gets to Heaven will be saved by the Church otherwise, they could not be apart of the Church Triumphant in Heaven.

I think one thing Pope Benidict pointed to in that book, is that all know of God on their hearts, one ignorant of the Church on Earth, may still have been opened to God's grace to be granted the faith to believe. Granted that person still might not know it quite as clearly as the Church can define things, but God can still use his grace.
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Old Jan 13, '07, 1:28 pm
Al Masetti Al Masetti is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

There is another issue here also, I think.

And that is ... words like "membership" in the Catholic Church .. or "joining" the Catholic Church .. have not been traditionally used in the Catholic Church.

You don't really "join".

My Protestant friends talk about joining this church or that one, but Catholics don't (or didn't) use those expressions.

Catholics just say "I'm Catholic." and / or "we go to Mass at Mount Carmel."

[There are other expressions that also are not part of the Catholic Lexicon, such as "taking communion". Catholics RECEIVE Holy Communion, not "take" communion.]

There are just a bunch of expressions that have a certain meaning or connotation or nuance ... but that just don't fit into the Catholic way of thinking.

Not sure why. Maybe "membership" or "joining" has a connotation that you need to be "voted in" or something.
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Old Jan 13, '07, 2:52 pm
francesco920 francesco920 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jman507 View Post
Look at it this way, you could tell someone go to Fargo, North Dakota. Someone with out a map, compass, and car, can get there, but I think the tendency is the ones with a map, compass, and car are going to tend to get there a lot easier.

I think it's a bit easier to get to heaven with prayer, the Bible, and the Church. One is better than none, two better than one, but three is the best of all.

Everyone who gets to Heaven will be saved by the Church otherwise, they could not be apart of the Church Triumphant in Heaven.

I think one thing Pope Benidict pointed to in that book, is that all know of God on their hearts, one ignorant of the Church on Earth, may still have been opened to God's grace to be granted the faith to believe. Granted that person still might not know it quite as clearly as the Church can define things, but God can still use his grace.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I'm just tired of all of the relativism and false ecumenism.
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Old Jan 14, '07, 12:48 am
jman507 jman507 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I'm just tired of all of the relativism and false ecumenism.
Exactly.
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  #12  
Old Jan 14, '07, 12:59 am
jman507 jman507 is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by Al Masetti View Post
There is another issue here also, I think.

And that is ... words like "membership" in the Catholic Church .. or "joining" the Catholic Church .. have not been traditionally used in the Catholic Church.

You don't really "join".

My Protestant friends talk about joining this church or that one, but Catholics don't (or didn't) use those expressions.

Catholics just say "I'm Catholic." and / or "we go to Mass at Mount Carmel."

[There are other expressions that also are not part of the Catholic Lexicon, such as "taking communion". Catholics RECEIVE Holy Communion, not "take" communion.]

There are just a bunch of expressions that have a certain meaning or connotation or nuance ... but that just don't fit into the Catholic way of thinking.

Not sure why. Maybe "membership" or "joining" has a connotation that you need to be "voted in" or something.
When I hear membership, I think yes, I am a member of St. Joseph in my town, but that isn't going to hing on my salvation. Admistrationally it helps the organization and logistics of my Archdiocese, but if you go to another country, they my not have the infrastructure we have here in the US. Some of those may not even utilize a membership for a parish.

I guess wouldn't think God is deciding on who gets to heaven based on who are members of that Calverly Church on 234 Main street Greenville, Mo. and everyone else out!
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Old Jan 14, '07, 3:22 am
Al Masetti Al Masetti is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by jman507 View Post
When I hear membership, I think yes, I am a member of St. Joseph in my town, but that isn't going to hing on my salvation. Admistrationally it helps the organization and logistics of my Archdiocese, but if you go to another country, they my not have the infrastructure we have here in the US. Some of those may not even utilize a membership for a parish.

I guess wouldn't think God is deciding on who gets to heaven based on who are members of that Calverly Church on 234 Main street Greenville, Mo. and everyone else out!
Catholics may "register" at a parish office. The parish census helps, as you say, for administration, perhaps in terms of knowing how many Catholics there are for the purposes of assigning priests.

But, again, as you say ... the Catholic Church doesn't issue I.D. cards ... the notion that if, when you get to St. Peter's desk at the Pearly Gates, you gotta present your I.D. card ... isn't a Catholic principle.

On the other hand, as other posters have written, the fullness of Christian teaching is present only in the Catholic Church.

That means not merely getting a "membership card" [and VOILA!, you're IN!!] ... it don't work that way.

You gotta do both.

You gotta study the 10 Commandments and the Commandments of the Church and the spiritual and corporal works of mercy. And incorporate them into yourself. And live by them.

It's how you live.

There are folks who talk a good talk, but they don't walk the walk ... they say they turn their lives over to the Lord, but then they just go and do whatever they want to do regardless of the fallout.
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  #14  
Old Jan 14, '07, 4:31 pm
Image of God Image of God is offline
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by francesco920 View Post
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I'm just tired of all of the relativism and false ecumenism.
I am not the only one concerned with the false ecumenism which is due to a misunderstanding of Vatican II, but hope I can get a clearer understanding of the teaching.
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Old Jan 14, '07, 5:58 pm
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Default Re: Membership in the Church is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by strgzr46 View Post
I am a new convert, but have been studying the Faith for 5+ years. I thought salvation could be available for non-Catholics, but that they would not enjoy the fullness of the faith. Am I wrong???

Floyd
No. I just finished listening to Karl Keating explain this.

He says:
"The Church teaches it is possible for people outside the Catholic Church to be saved...Provided those people who are not members of the Catholic Church are following what they believe to be a well formed conscience - and - like Catholics must do - die in a state of sanctifying grace. If you die in a state of mortal sin - Catholic or Non-Catholic - you cannot go to heaven. If you die in a state of Sanctifying grace, you will end up in heaven. Those people who are Outside the Catholic Church, and reject membership in the Church, out of ignorance - which would be Most Non-Catholics - have the Potential to be saved. Those who are outside the Church, and reject the Church, knowing that its the Church that Christ established, cannot be saved."

All emphasis is mine.
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