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  #31  
Old May 25, '07, 10:48 am
pacislander4lif pacislander4lif is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustine22 View Post
I don't know about the orgininal way back when. My Douay right in front of me has the imprimatur. If everything is so loose and unimportant with versions and needing imprimaturs why would this one have it?...
I hope this works...never double quoted before... I dont think they used Imprimaturs back then in the original publication. The fact that your DR has one, which is an "updated" version, I assume by Bishop Challoner, which you claim is like a "translation of a translation" (your assumption), cannot be used as a basis for comparison with Bob's case.. for one, you have a hundred years+ in between the two Imprimaturs, right? Nobody said it is "loose" and "unimportant"... I assume you mean, "why wouldnt this have one"? Well, it does have one, for the translation... The commentary itself is being sought...
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  #32  
Old May 25, '07, 1:26 pm
Augustine22 Augustine22 is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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Originally Posted by pacislander4lif View Post
I dont think they used Imprimaturs back then in the original publication.

If they didn't use imprimaturs back then, and I don't know if they did or not, then what matters is that the new translations have it and Canon law says they have to have it now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pacislander4lif View Post
The fact that your DR has one, which is an "updated" version, I assume by Bishop Challoner, which you claim is like a "translation of a translation" (your assumption), cannot be used as a basis for comparison with Bob's case.. for one, you have a hundred years+ in between the two Imprimaturs, right?
This what it says at CAI--

"The Douay-Rheims Bible is for the most part a translation of a translation."

http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/2006/qa-dec-06.htm

Then theres this--

"Dear Robert, I came across an article by James Akin on the Douay Rheims which I have cut and pasted from. He seems to imply that Douay bibles today have been changed so much today that they are unlike the original and they are not a pure translation of it."

R. Sungenis: As for Akin's comments, yes, he is correct about the changes in the DR. The original DR used old English that you and I would hardly recognize today. On the other hand, he makes it sound as if we now have two different Bibles, and that is surely not the case... So it is no surprise to see the DR go through revisions. Our CASB uses something close to the 1899 edition of the DR, but we have made many changes".


http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/2004/...#Question%2022


So even CAI says the Douay is a translation of a translation and that its had revisions. And they have the imprimatur. And he says he made many changes to it. If his translation doesn't have an imprimatur then I think it's past sketchy to be selling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacislander4lif View Post
Nobody said it is "loose" and "unimportant"....
But before you said--

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacislander4lif View Post
Why is this Imprimatur business such a big deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacislander4lif View Post
I assume you mean, "why wouldnt this have one"? Well, it does have one, for the translation... The commentary itself is being sought
But that's not quite right. The RSV has an imprimatur but Sungenis doesn't have an imprimatur on his book anywhere even if he says he used the RSV. And that doesn't help on the Matthew one.

And it still doesn't make any sense to me that he is trying to get the imprimatur after he put the book out. I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time believing that. Does that really make sense to you? Would you do that?

I just saw this, too. What do you make of it?

Sungenis wrote--

"And, of course, they contain the Catholic Church's Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, just as the CASB will contain."

http://www.catholicintl.com/donations/casb.htm

This goes back when the Matthew one just came out. So it's probably something like 4 years old.

So Sungenis thinks it's important enough to have it. He's uses it to assure people. But how can he say it will get it? At least 4 years or maybe 5 years later there's still no imprimatur.

There's just a lot that doesn't make sense to me. If your fine with that I guess its your personal business. But if your out telling other people to buy them thats a different story.
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  #33  
Old May 25, '07, 2:07 pm
pacislander4lif pacislander4lif is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustine22 View Post
If they didn't use imprimaturs back then, and I don't know if they did or not, then what matters is that the new translations have it and Canon law says they have to have it now.




This what it says at CAI--

"The Douay-Rheims Bible is for the most part a translation of a translation."

http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/2006/qa-dec-06.htm

Then theres this--

"Dear Robert, I came across an article by James Akin on the Douay Rheims which I have cut and pasted from. He seems to imply that Douay bibles today have been changed so much today that they are unlike the original and they are not a pure translation of it."

R. Sungenis: As for Akin's comments, yes, he is correct about the changes in the DR. The original DR used old English that you and I would hardly recognize today. On the other hand, he makes it sound as if we now have two different Bibles, and that is surely not the case... So it is no surprise to see the DR go through revisions. Our CASB uses something close to the 1899 edition of the DR, but we have made many changes".


http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/2004/...#Question%2022


So even CAI says the Douay is a translation of a translation and that its had revisions. And they have the imprimatur. And he says he made many changes to it. If his translation doesn't have an imprimatur then I think it's past sketchy to be selling it.



But before you said--






But that's not quite right. The RSV has an imprimatur but Sungenis doesn't have an imprimatur on his book anywhere even if he says he used the RSV. And that doesn't help on the Matthew one.

And it still doesn't make any sense to me that he is trying to get the imprimatur after he put the book out. I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time believing that. Does that really make sense to you? Would you do that?

I just saw this, too. What do you make of it?

Sungenis wrote--

"And, of course, they contain the Catholic Church's Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, just as the CASB will contain."

http://www.catholicintl.com/donations/casb.htm

This goes back when the Matthew one just came out. So it's probably something like 4 years old.

So Sungenis thinks it's important enough to have it. He's uses it to assure people. But how can he say it will get it? At least 4 years or maybe 5 years later there's still no imprimatur.

There's just a lot that doesn't make sense to me. If your fine with that I guess its your personal business. But if your out telling other people to buy them thats a different story.
Okay... I can understand your concern especially with the information on the CASB page... It needs to be REVISED reflecting this issue and future plans... As far as your logic about why it MUST have an Imprimatur, I dont agree with you. Nor do I believe it must be taken off the market just because it has no Imprimatur. Bob has said that his "translation of a translation" does not require an Imprimatur based on what the USCCB told him. Now, I am asking him to publish the letter from the USCCB for confirmation of this. That's his decision if he does or does not... But, of course youre going to say, again, for the 10th time, that your DR has one... Yes, we understand, my DR has one too... But, if Bob's re-presentation of the USCCB letter is accurate, then if it doesnt NEED one, then that doesnt mean you couldnt have one... And again, we cant compare the two since the procedures may have changed over the last 100+ years since the DR received its Imprimatur... Lots of things received Imprimaturs back then, even devotional materials which are not required for the faithful to accept. So, I think this issue is far more complex than it is being made to be... My suggestion to you is to call Bob yourself and ask him these questions. I have the book and I am enjoying reading it... The Not By Bread Alone book didnt get the Imprimatur, and yet nobody raised any objections back then, that I know of... so, I am still not understanding why this is such a big deal. If you do not wish to purchase the book because you fear for your soul b/c it doesnt have an Imprimatur, than thats your decision...

Contact Bob at 1-800-531-6393 or 717-597-8670

Laurence
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  #34  
Old May 25, '07, 2:17 pm
pacislander4lif pacislander4lif is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

I just got off the phone with Bob Sungenis... He read to me the letter from the USCCB... I personally have no reason to doubt Bob Sungenis' word on this... If that is seen as a "bias" since I work for CAI, though on the other side of the US, then so be it. But it is no more of a bias than the former CAI people and their crusade against CAI. Bob has agreed to publish a PDF copy of this letter, which satisfies all the canonical issues raised, by the way, if and ONLY IF, Augustine22 will provide us with his real name and contact information... You can do that privately to me at [email protected] or Bob Sungenis at [email protected]...

AMDG,
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  #35  
Old May 25, '07, 4:13 pm
Augustine22 Augustine22 is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

I wasn't trying to get you so angry but I never said anything about a letter from Sungenis and the USCCB. I said that it doesn't make sense to me to be going for an imprimatur now after you publish and not before you publish a book and I still stick to it. I haven't heard any answer on that. Do you ask him about that one, too?

You never said if you would do that or if that makes sense to you either.

And can't you admit the translation problem with the Matthew one is pretty weird? The Church said its okay with him putting out his own translation because he's got a techicality or something? The Church is very careful about the Bible and for good reasons.

Two of you are out here saying things about these books by Sungenis and why Sungenis did what he did or didn't do about imprimaturs and it doesn't make sense to me and I know it doesn't make sense to other people too. If you don't like when your questioned about things like this then maybe you shouldn't be out at the CA forums trying to push him.

And some of the things it looked to me like two of you were just coming up with answers that you thought would make everything okay and didn't really know what you were talking about. And some of it still doesn't make sense to me. But like I said, if you're fine with it, that's your business.

As for talking to you or Sungenis and giving my private information, no. Saying that he needs my private infomation so he can post a letter from the USCCB about his book is a weird thing to do even if I did ask for it. If he thinks it will answer legit questions he doesn't need my private information. If questions are not legit then getting private information from someone doesn't change that.

If you think I'm the only one that thinks this is weird you're wrong. I've gotten messages from other people who thinks its weird, too.

But if you don't want to give the answers about why he didn't get the imprimatur before publishing his books that's up to you. I won't be buying them. And that's up to me.
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  #36  
Old May 25, '07, 4:38 pm
pacislander4lif pacislander4lif is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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Originally Posted by Augustine22 View Post
I wasn't trying to get you so angry but I never said anything about a letter from Sungenis and the USCCB. I said that it doesn't make sense to me to be going for an imprimatur now after you publish and not before you publish a book and I still stick to it. I haven't heard any answer on that. Do you ask him about that one, too?

You never said if you would do that or if that makes sense to you either.

And can't you admit the translation problem with the Matthew one is pretty weird? The Church said its okay with him putting out his own translation because he's got a techicality or something? The Church is very careful about the Bible and for good reasons.

Two of you are out here saying things about these books by Sungenis and why Sungenis did what he did or didn't do about imprimaturs and it doesn't make sense to me and I know it doesn't make sense to other people too. If you don't like when your questioned about things like this then maybe you shouldn't be out at the CA forums trying to push him.

And some of the things it looked to me like two of you were just coming up with answers that you thought would make everything okay and didn't really know what you were talking about. And some of it still doesn't make sense to me. But like I said, if you're fine with it, that's your business.

As for talking to you or Sungenis and giving my private information, no. Saying that he needs my private infomation so he can post a letter from the USCCB about his book is a weird thing to do even if I did ask for it. If he thinks it will answer legit questions he doesn't need my private information. If questions are not legit then getting private information from someone doesn't change that.

If you think I'm the only one that thinks this is weird you're wrong. I've gotten messages from other people who thinks its weird, too.

But if you don't want to give the answers about why he didn't get the imprimatur before publishing his books that's up to you. I won't be buying them. And that's up to me.
I take it since you are asking the same questions, yet again, and airing your same confusions, yet again... that you havent called Bob about this... sigh... if this is bothering you so much, call him, it is toll free.

I find no problems with any of your objections, imprimatur or no imprimatur... and no it doesnt seem wierd to seek it after it is published because the book can be published again...

Laurence
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  #37  
Old May 25, '07, 9:48 pm
lumengentleman lumengentleman is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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Originally Posted by pacislander4lif View Post
I just got off the phone with Bob Sungenis... He read to me the letter from the USCCB... I personally have no reason to doubt Bob Sungenis' word on this ... Bob has agreed to publish a PDF copy of this letter, which satisfies all the canonical issues raised, by the way, if and ONLY IF, Augustine22 will provide us with his real name and contact information
Let me just quote you something from Bob's earlier work, Not by Bread Alone:

Quote:
Not by Bread Alone was accepted for the Nihil Obstat by the Archdiocese of Baltimore. However, an Imprimatur could not be issued, since canon law forbids issuance to an author who resides in another diocese. The author resides in the Arlington, Virginia diocese, which has not yet activated its privileges to issue Imprimaturs. (NBBA, p. iv)
The fact that Bob put this notice in NBBA tells us a few things: he considers the imprimatur issue to be quite important, he sought the imprimatur before he published his book, and he made sure to alert his readers to the fact that the book did not get the imprimatur, and gave the reasons why.

Now, it's time to come clean, Laurence. If Bob was so careful to address the imprimatur issue forthrightly back in 2000 when he published NBBA, why isn't he being forthright with his readers now? If he has a letter from the USCCB giving him a free pass, where is it? Why wasn't mention of it made in his CASB 1? Why doesn't he just put it out there, now that he knows (due to your recent contact with him) that the lack of imprimatur has become an issue?

This whole thing smells like last Friday's fish, Laurence.

Did Bob get a free pass from the USCCB or didn't he? You've made the claim publicly, so where's the proof?

Did Bob apply for an imprimatur for CASB 2 or didn't he? More importantly, when did he apply for it, if he applied at all? Was he rejected? Did the bishop's office just ignore the request? Was it approved pending further investigation? What's the deal?

Between you and Mark, there have been a lot of excuses made, which have generated a lot of inconsistencies.

The imprimatur is not a big deal, supposedly, and yet Bob must think it is a big deal, or he wouldn't have sought it in the first place.

The CASB 1 was rejected for an imprimatur, according to Bob, because it was just a "translation of a translation", yet the CASB 1 itself makes a lot out of the fact that it's a new translation, measured against today's highest scholarly standards.

The CASB 2 supposedly doesn't need an imprimatur because it uses the RSV, and yet it doesn't have an imprimatur - why not? I find it hard to believe that Bob didn't try - after all, you said he switched to the RSV precisely because it would make getting the imprimatur easier. So where is the imprimatur?

And why are you trying to brush off the missing imprimatur as being of little consequence, when obtaining it was clearly significant enough that Bob dropped the entire "new translation" project in order to make it easier to get that coveted imprimatur?

If Bob really has a letter from the USCCB that can clear some of this up, he owes it to his patrons and people who actually spent money on the CASB to publicize that information. And yet, apparently he's trying to use this letter as a bargaining chip in some bizarre PR game. That just makes it even more fishy! Is he in this for the truth, or for the image?

Somehow I don't think that USCCB letter is going to appear any time soon. It might just harm Bob's book sales. If it had any sort of exoneration for him in it, he would have made sure it was included in the CASB itself, or at least mentioned it, like he did in NBBA. The fact that he's only just now bringing it up, and only in the face of persistent challenges, speaks volumes.
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  #38  
Old May 27, '07, 12:20 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

Robert Sungenis responds to Jacob Michael.
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  #39  
Old May 27, '07, 6:45 pm
lumengentleman lumengentleman is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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Robert Sungenis responds to Jacob Michael.
Predictably, there is nothing in this "response" about an alleged letter from the USCCB. This also speaks volumes.

So much more could be said, but, to what point? Bob gave us more excuses. I feel no need to interact with that. His "response" speaks for itself, and once again, Bob has damaged himself more than any of his "critics" ever could.
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  #40  
Old May 31, '07, 6:38 am
lumengentleman lumengentleman is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

The challenge remains open. When is Bob going to produce this alleged USCCB letter, and start giving some straight answers?
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  #41  
Old May 31, '07, 10:46 am
richardeekw richardeekw is offline
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

Yes, his CASB vol 1 - Matthew is his revision from the DR.
His CASB vol 2- The Apocalypse of St John is from the RSV.

I hope he can get the Imprimatur & Nihil Obstat on this vol 2.

Does anyone know if the Imprimatur & Nihil Obstat covers BOTH the Biblical text in English as well as the Footnotes/ Commentaries.?

I notice that the Ignatius Catholic Study bible series has the Bishop;s endorsement SEPARATELY on the RSV texts as well as the Footnotes/Commentary.
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  #42  
Old Jun 1, '07, 10:44 am
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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I think he's got some good ideas, and I think that on purely one level of meaning, he is OK and good.

I will, however, very much disagree that amillennialism provides the deepest understanding of the Millennium. In my analysis, the Millennium is figurative (as it must be), but practically future, as it is, IMHO, rather the age of peace that will follow the most likely minor chastisement. See my thread in these forums:

Deficiencies with amillennial suppositions

Secondly, I perceive an even deeper and more penetrating analysis of the False Prophet that uses the notion of the devil's plagiarizing of the Sacraments:

The Lamb, the True Logos, and the Second Beast, the False Logos


His analysis of the Seal of God is too vague. I don't see it merely as Baptism, for heretics and schismatics have baptism, but they are not fully protected from spiritual harm in their "forehead", as they can be led PARTIALLY astray in their intellect, seeing as they have not the fullness of truth only to be found in the Catholic Church. Toward that end, I think he's missing some deeper analysis of the trumpets and ecclesiology:

The Seal, the Mark, and Everything In Between

Finally, he doesn't seem to fully probe the depths of the beast as a image of successive ages of sin across all human history, precisely tied to the "evening" or "darkness" of the days of creation, which some ECFs see as imaging seven (eight) successive stages in the Redemption of the World:

The Beast and Historicism

I know this is alot, but really check them out. I promise you won't be disappointed!

scott
Hi Spauline:

I did take a look at some of your essays. You haev some interesting ideas, especially around the different stages human endeavors serving the beast(s). I also find your discussion of the two horns (i.e., protestantism, and possibly ultimately a completely false religion interesting). I will have to think a bit more about your post-millennial views. I must admit that they do not in themselves defeat many of the interpretations of the amillennial, at least on the surface, and in fact probably more consistent with the interpertations of the traditional (i.e., Augustinian) amillenial than many preterist views.

I find the discussion around the different stages human endeavors serving the beast(s) interesting, because a feeling which I have had around those issues made me much more open to consider the possibility of geocentrism. I.e., sciecne has yet to this day demonstrated that the earth moves or rotates, and one can make a very rational case that science ahs actually been struggling for centuries to support Copernicism, but as it failed to do so continued to reformulate science to maintain the presupposition (i.e., Copernicism) while still fitting the failed experiments. So now we have experiemntal appartus that just happens to shrink enough in the direction of pressupposed motion to "mask" the motion, etc. See Galileo Was Wrong, Robert Sungenis. I think that understanding this may actually be foundational, as science has had to continually update itself through the centuries (especially the 19th and 20th) to maintain the image of Copernicism.

Mark Wyatt
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  #43  
Old Jun 1, '07, 10:54 am
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
Hi Spauline:

I did take a look at some of your essays. You haev some interesting ideas, especially around the different stages human endeavors serving the beast(s). I also find your discussion of the two horns (i.e., protestantism, and possibly ultimately a completely false religion interesting). I will have to think a bit more about your post-millennial views. I must admit that they do not in themselves defeat many of the interpretations of the amillennial, at least on the surface, and in fact probably more consistent with the interpertations of the traditional (i.e., Augustinian) amillenial than many preterist views.

I find the discussion around the different stages human endeavors serving the beast(s) interesting, because a feeling which I have had around those issues made me much more open to consider the possibility of geocentrism. I.e., sciecne has yet to this day demonstrated that the earth moves or rotates, and one can make a very rational case that science ahs actually been struggling for centuries to support Copernicism, but as it failed to do so continued to reformulate science to maintain the presupposition (i.e., Copernicism) while still fitting the failed experiments. So now we have experiemntal appartus that just happens to shrink enough in the direction of pressupposed motion to "mask" the motion, etc. See Galileo Was Wrong, Robert Sungenis. I think that understanding this may actually be foundational, as science has had to continually update itself through the centuries (especially the 19th and 20th) to maintain the image of Copernicism.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
Hi, Mark

thank you for the interest. I appreciate your feedback. Just one thing though. I don't see the false prophet as protestantism itself, but rather a diabolical TWISTING of what goodness is RETAINED by Protestantism. but anyway, I'll respond later as I have more time.

About geocentrism, I don't know, I'll have to get back. I think it would be nice if earth was the center of everything, but not really sure that the Scriptures should be taken as science.
\
but, anyway, thanks again and God bless you.

scott
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Old Jun 1, '07, 10:58 am
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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Hi, Mark

... I don't see the false prophet as protestantism itself, but rather a diabolical TWISTING of what goodness is RETAINED by Protestantism...
...
scott
That is what I understood- protestantism is weakened in that it has only 2 sacraments, i.e., it repersents the minimum state of being Christian. The second beast will create a false religion with 2 sacramanets in the future mimicking protestantism. In fact, I would add, it may already exist amongst the protestant churches.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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Old Jun 1, '07, 12:17 pm
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Default Re: The Apocalypse of St. John- Sungenis

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That is what I understood- protestantism is weakened in that it has only 2 sacraments, i.e., it repersents the minimum state of being Christian. The second beast will create a false religion with 2 sacramanets in the future mimicking protestantism. In fact, I would add, it may already exist amongst the protestant churches.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
well, no, that is the essence of the spiritual nature of the false prophet, the same false prophecy of any of the ages of the beast. It was metaphor. Toward that end, the false prophet already exists in the modern apostasy, as it did in Rome, Antiochus, Egypt, Babel, etc. So, I'm not sure that you understand me fully.

But, I do pray God bless you.

Scott
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