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  #16  
Old Jul 4, '07, 9:58 am
KarlAdam KarlAdam is offline
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Default Re: End times

Everyone here should know that there are very serious issues surrounding Sungenis' work. His book on Revelation was denied an imprimatur.

Sungenis and his supporters have been shown to be quite deceptive in the matter. They are trying desperately to convince people that they are the persecuted victims in the matter and that their words have been misconstrued. You can read through the posts yourself and make up your own mind:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=164910

I was unaware of this crowd until only recently. I have attended Michael Barber's Bible studies in San Diego and read his wonderful book--which, by the way, does have an imprimatur. Barber is thorougly orthodox as those who know him or who have heard him on Catholic Answers radio well know. I saw Mark Wyatt's review of his book and the more I read, the more I was shocked to discover the kinds of things Bob Sungenis--who wrote a book I loved on sola Scriptura--is now up to. It's very sad.

Please be careful to note that Sungenis, and his supporters such as Wyatt are extremely suspicious of everyone, finding heresy lurking in places where it is clearly not--including, it would seem, in the Catechism. Seriously, read Sungenis and decide for yourself if I'm mistaken.
http://h1.ripway.com/markjwyatt/Imprimatur_4.pdf

Do make sure you read what came before this response from Sungenis--you'll find he tweaks the facts a bit.

So apparently one cannot trust Ratzinger (who oversaw the Catechism), Schonborn, Scott Hahn, or anyone else, except apparently Bob Sungenis. He probably means well, but there are very serious problems in his thought.

Please be careful out there folks. Don't believe everything you hear--read it yourself.
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  #17  
Old Jul 4, '07, 10:01 am
KarlAdam KarlAdam is offline
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Default Re: End times

By the way, here's that CA show with Michael Barber (with Brant Pitre). You can listen to the podcast here...

http://www.catholic.com/radio/event....ate=2007-06-25
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  #18  
Old Jul 5, '07, 8:39 am
Brenda4God Brenda4God is offline
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Default Re: End times

I agree with Karl Adam. Sungenis is a smart man but if it has anything to do with Jewish people. Well, I just wouldn't trust him on that.

You should read these~

http://wquercus.com/sungenis/

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog...ws-update.html

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog...-and-jews.html

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog...s-part-ii.html
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  #19  
Old Jul 5, '07, 12:52 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlAdam View Post
Everyone here should know that there are very serious issues surrounding Sungenis' work. His book on Revelation was denied an imprimatur.
Quite honestly, I doubt that is anything unusual. I am sure books are denied imprimatur on the first try all the time. Robert is still working to get an imprimatur. In the mean time he has released the book, and it is an excellent work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlAdam View Post
... I have attended Michael Barber's Bible studies in San Diego and read his wonderful book--which, by the way, does have an imprimatur. Barber is thorougly orthodox as those who know him or who have heard him on Catholic Answers radio well know. I saw Mark Wyatt's review of his book and the more I read, the more I was shocked to discover the kinds of things Bob Sungenis--who wrote a book I loved on sola Scriptura--is now up to. It's very sad.
No one has said, including myself, that Barber is not a very orthodox Catholic. Again, you are getting your feathers all ruffled because I did not recommend his book.

Why not read Robert's book for yourself. Maybe you will agree that his book on the Apocalypse is also worth loving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlAdam View Post
Please be careful to note that Sungenis, and his supporters such as Wyatt are extremely suspicious of everyone, finding heresy lurking in places where it is clearly not--including, it would seem, in the Catechism. Seriously, read Sungenis and decide for yourself if I'm mistaken.
http://h1.ripway.com/markjwyatt/Imprimatur_4.pdf ...

So apparently one cannot trust Ratzinger (who oversaw the Catechism)...
Slow down, Karl. I guess it is not what it seems. The document you linked is Robert Sungenis' response to the imprimatur issue, and in it, he states that the USCCB Adult Catechism (not the Vatican's catechism) does have some questionable material in it (thus reference to Ratzinger is superfluous). It teaches that the Mosaic covenant is still salvific for Jews, and Robert believes that this is part of the reason he was denied imprimatur (i.e., because he did not teach that, and knowing him he will not teach that). Note that the bishop's refusal letter specifically referenced the pages where this is taught in the Adult catechism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlAdam View Post
So apparently one cannot trust Ratzinger (who oversaw the Catechism), Schonborn, Scott Hahn, or anyone else, except apparently Bob Sungenis. He probably means well, but there are very serious problems in his thought.
Again, Ratzinger has nothing to do with it. Schonborn,well that's a seperate issue, not sure how you got him involved. As to Scott Hahn, no one has said that. Read my book review to understand why I did not recommend Barber's book. Not recommending for specific reasons is much different than saying that someone is not to be trusted. And Scott Hahn is only indirectly involved.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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  #20  
Old Jul 5, '07, 1:23 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda4God View Post
I agree with Karl Adam. Sungenis is a smart man but if it has anything to do with Jewish people. Well, I just wouldn't trust him on that.

You should read these~

http://wquercus.com/sungenis/
You know Bill Cork is a 7th Day Adventist? He was a member of the Catholic Church, but is no longer. Not the best witness.


Chris Blosser appears to be more interested in politics than Catholicism, and a very pro-Isreal politics at that. He can't let theology interfere with his politics. Here is a quote from this link:

"Christopher Blosser of the so-called Ratzinger Fan Club (not a fan of Benedict on the matter of war), while by no means as reckless as the other two publicly, has consistently supported and deliberately incited their rants behind the scenes, as well as opposed the Vatican and Just War teaching relative to this war of aggression, and, relying on the arguments and writings of the major neconservatives completely, has been a reflexive apologist for the Bush administration's disastrous policies which has ended in so much blood. "

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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  #21  
Old Jul 5, '07, 2:52 pm
Brenda4God Brenda4God is offline
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Join Date: October 16, 2006
Posts: 171
Default Re: End times

Trth-skr, you really think Mr. Sungenis is good when it comes to Jewish things? Really?

I've read a lot about this over the last year and was forced to admit the problem pretty early on. I love his early works but Mr. Sungenis has a real problem when it comes to Jews.

And what does it have to do with anything that Mr. Cork is a 7th Day Adventist anyways? Do you mean to say that 7th Day Adventists are liars or that they can't tell when a person plagarizes ant-Semetic writings?

And I read what Mr. Blosser wrote too. What you said doesn't have much at all to do with the problems he found from Mr. Sungenis.

What about all of the people that used to volunteer for Mr. Sungenis? Are they all liars, too? Or are they all crazy? 7th Day Adventists?

http://www.personal.psu.edu/bmd175/sungenis.htm

http://www.personal.psu.edu/bmd175/sungenis3.htm

http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/

http://www.sungenisandthejews.com/

You must be his mother or his best friend to defend him so. God bless your heart.

Last edited by Brenda4God; Jul 5, '07 at 3:12 pm.
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  #22  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:15 pm
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
I am not sure what your point is. Sungenis does have fairly strong opinions on secular Jews and Talmudic Judaism, as well as Zionism. Much of his views do stem from his understanding of Scripture, especially Romans, but many other books as well. As to his views on end times, these do play in somewhat, but the interpretation of Apocalypse really does not depend on his views on Judaism too much.

True, he rejects a post-millenial scheme with Israel being prophetically reinstated as a nation, but this really never was a Catholic view. He does not reject the view out of any feelings towards Jews, but rather because the Church does not , nor has taught that. The Church has consistently taught an amillenial view since at least Augustine. The future Israel is the heavenly Israel. As St. Bellarmine pointed out ( Disputations on the Controversies Over the Christian Faith Against the Heretics of the Day):




Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com



Sungenis' book has been flat-out denied an imprimatur. Catholics beware, as Sungenis for many months led people to believe it was coming, when it had, in fact, already been denied.
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  #23  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:19 pm
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
Quite honestly, I doubt that is anything unusual. I am sure books are denied imprimatur on the first try all the time. Robert is still working to get an imprimatur. In the mean time he has released the book, and it is an excellent work.

Then why did he lie about it in the months leading up to publication by failing to disclose that he was already notified the imprimatur was categorically denied? I bought the book, not realizing this was the case.
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  #24  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:20 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: End times

Brenda4God:

I could link up Robert's response to all those pieces you linked, but it is getting pretty old. Just go to his website, and you can find all the responses if you want.

Bill Cork (the 7th Day Adventist) first started criticiizing Robert when Robert wrote an article critcal of the idea that we do not need to evangalize Jews any longer. That is ridiculous.

Now we have a USCCB Adult Catechism which claims that the Mosaic Covenant is salvific for Jews. I truly question that. And Robert did write to the CDF about it. And the page of the catechism related to that question was indicated a a reason to decline his request for an imprimatur.

These are the type of things Robert has gone after. Maybe he is to strong and went over the top in some instances (especially in entering more political areas), but the basics of what he is going after is real.

For the last year or so, he has been being attacked by some of his co-workers, and responding, and being attacked, and responding (etc., etc., etc.). Each attack lead to more material on Jewish questions on his site, which then lead his attackers to point out all the Jewish material, etc.

I am not saying Robert is perfect, but as far as this thread is concerned, and the question of end times, and specifically his book on the Apocalypse, the Jewish question barely enters in. There are some questions, certainly, but they are not of too controversial a nature.


Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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  #25  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:22 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by tm30 View Post
Then why did he lie about it in the months leading up to publication by failing to disclose that he was already notified the imprimatur was categorically denied? I bought the book, not realizing this was the case.
Please read his statement. He did not lie about anything.

BTW, did you like the book? ? ?

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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  #26  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:26 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by tm30 View Post
Sungenis' book has been flat-out denied an imprimatur. Catholics beware, as Sungenis for many months led people to believe it was coming, when it had, in fact, already been denied.
A denial is not the end of the road. It is like asking a girl out for a date. You may get rejected a few times before you get a 'yes'.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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  #27  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:31 pm
Mommyof02green's Avatar
Mommyof02green Mommyof02green is offline
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
Now we have a USCCB Adult Catechism which claims that the Mosaic Covenant is salvific for Jews. I truly question that.
I happen to have a copy of the USCCB Adult Catechism. What page?
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  #28  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:35 pm
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: End times

I think Robert Sungenis is a brilliant exegete. But all it takes is one fatal flaw to send the whole thing off the rails. If he's claiming that the Catechism contains heresy, what else do I need to hear to determine if he's safe to read?

I read the document you pointed me too and find that he's just parsing his words. "I didn't say WHICH imprimatur we were waiting for." Come on. Anyone under the scrutiny he's been under would have had all their cards on the table with something as serious as an imprimatur. So, if/when he's rejected a second time and he tells everyone he's still waiting, do we have to divine that he's referring to a third bite at the apple without him telling us so?

It's just too shifty by half. I'm afraid he's turning into a modern-day Origen, but I sincerely SINCERELY hope his gifted mind for exegesis gets back on track. His work was too valuable for him to die on the hill of the Mosaic Covenant. If he won't let go of it, as a sign of humility, then there's not much to discuss.

In the meantime, I will keep his book tucked away in a box until an imprimatur actually materializes.
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  #29  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:56 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: End times

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommyof02green View Post
I happen to have a copy of the USCCB Adult Catechism. What page?
pg. 131:



"Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them."

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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  #30  
Old Jul 5, '07, 4:57 pm
Brenda4God Brenda4God is offline
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Default Re: End times

Trth-skr,

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
Bill Cork (the 7th Day Adventist) first started criticiizing Robert when Robert wrote an article critcal of the idea that we do not need to evangalize Jews any longer. That is ridiculous.
That's not the important part of his article, though. The plagarism and anti-Semetic writings he used are the part I was talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
These are the type of things Robert has gone after.
Mmmm...he went after a lot more than. I read it myself. I'm not blind...yet anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
For the last year or so, he has been being attacked by some of his co-workers, and responding, and being attacked, and responding (etc., etc., etc.). Each attack lead to more material on Jewish questions on his site, which then lead his attackers to point out all the Jewish material, etc.
My goodness. When Mr. Sungenis writes, it's a reponse. When the people who disagree with him write, it's an attack!

I read, Trth-skr. Mr. Sungenis started attacking a lot of people, especially Jews, before anyone said much of anything to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
I am not saying Robert is perfect, but as far as this thread is concerned, and the question of end times, and specifically his book on the Apocalypse, the Jewish question barely enters in. There are some questions, certainly, but they are not of too controversial a nature.

I read about what is happening now, too. Mr. Sungenis said that he could not get his imprimtur because of what he wrote about Jews in his book. I could find it if you like. That doesn't sound small to me.
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