Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Dec 9, '07, 11:25 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
Forum Master
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 12,750
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian "Traditional" Catholic
Question Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

In the Motu Proprio the Holy Father used the terms Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form of the Mass because he sees them as two different expressions of the same Mass.

Yet here it seems many still use the terms TLM (which is incorrect anyways as it is really referring to the 1962 revision of the Missal) and the NO.

What is it about the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form that people do not like?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Dec 9, '07, 11:48 am
ribbit ribbit is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2007
Posts: 31
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

At least in my case, it is force of habit. While I am *trying*, I am simply not yet used to referring to the two forms using the 'new' names. And I don't think anything has come out indicating that it is now improper to use the terms NO or TLM or that His Holiness expects the terminology to change. But I could be wrong about that.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Dec 9, '07, 11:52 am
arieh0310 arieh0310 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2005
Posts: 878
Religion: Catholic, Easter Vigil 2006
Send a message via MSN to arieh0310 Send a message via Yahoo to arieh0310
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

I use the term Traditional Latin Mass because Ordinary and Extraordinary Form seems to me to be a juridical term to reintegrate the TLM into the life of the Church. I don't want the NO to be the ordinary form of mass for the Latin Rite, I want the mass that has grown organically over the course of 15 centuries and formed the lives of innumerable saints to be the ordinary expression of Catholic worship.
__________________
"The mind commands the body and it obeys. The mind orders itself and meets resistance."--St. Augustine

Conversi Ad Dominum
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Dec 9, '07, 12:11 pm
deigloriam deigloriam is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2007
Posts: 85
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

I couldn't agree more with the previous post.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Dec 9, '07, 1:13 pm
arieh0310 arieh0310 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2005
Posts: 878
Religion: Catholic, Easter Vigil 2006
Send a message via MSN to arieh0310 Send a message via Yahoo to arieh0310
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Notice too that the Holy Father is using other terminology. In Spe Salvi he called the "extraordinary form" of baptism the "classical form" in paragraph 10.
__________________
"The mind commands the body and it obeys. The mind orders itself and meets resistance."--St. Augustine

Conversi Ad Dominum
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Dec 9, '07, 1:23 pm
Malcolm McLean Malcolm McLean is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 4, 2006
Posts: 1,749
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
What is it about the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form that people do not like?
His Holiness has a great sense of humour. He is teasing Traditionalists about the extraordinary ministers of holy communion.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Dec 9, '07, 4:26 pm
francesco920 francesco920 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2006
Posts: 733
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

The reason is because, as Father Zuhlsdorf has often pointed out, the Pope's use of the terms "Ordinary Form" and "Extraordinary Form" deals with a juridical question only:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Zuhlsdorf
...by stating in Summorum Pontificum that there are two uses of one Roman Rite, Benedict has made a juridical distinction. This is critical to understand how Benedict derestricted the older form of Mass so elegantly.

By saying that, considered juridically, there is only one Rite in two uses, Benedict eliminated the need to grant special faculties (canonical "permission to say Mass" coming from proper authority) to say the older Mass. If a faculty can be given, it can be withheld or withdrawn. By saying that there is just one rite, juridically, Benedict has seen to it that if a priest has the faculty to say Mass in the Roman Rite at all, then he has the faculty to say either Mass, the older or newer form or use. This is a juridical distinction.

Benedict is not, I believe, saying that there is no longer a question of whether or not the Novus Ordo is, considered historically, liturgically, theologically, etc., a different Rite. This was an elegant juridical solution.

I think the question remains open about whether or not the Novus Ordo is really a different rite.

Frankly, I think it probably is. I think the changes made were different enough to constitute it as a different rite. I frankly think that that is what Benedict XVI thinks too, based on what I have read and also knowing the great esteem and harmony he has with Klaus Gamber.
A lot more study of this needs to be done and I sincerely think the door is still open for that study. The need is sure there!

That said, I thank His Holiness for the elegant juridical solution in Summorum Pontificum of considering there to be one Roman Rite, juridically considered.
Source
__________________
"What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."

- Pope Benedict XVI

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Dec 9, '07, 4:58 pm
havemercy havemercy is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2006
Posts: 1,177
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via AIM to havemercy
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Because while the Classical Roman Rite is extraordinary indeed, the "ordinary form" is not, in my uneducated but sensitive opinion, an organic development from the Church's liturgical past. The liturgy was taken and mutilated, tossed together, and watered down, and super-imposed on the Church's already matured liturgical tradition. I simply don't take those terms seriously, as if they held intrinsic value. They're good to hide behind in hostile territory, but they are ultimately meaningless insofar as they represent the reality as it is.

In my opinion, Benedict's terminology in his motu proprio does not constitute a theological or Traditional statement, but a political one. I find it hard to believe that B16 sincerely believes that both "forms" share the same ethos. So far in his pontificate almost every move of the Holy Father's seems to be geared toward the long-term - this is why Benedict's motu proprio is so pastoral and harmless. He saw his predecessor Paul weep and so he knows that if he were to act rashly, and promulgate/abrogate something so influential in the life of the Church as the Novus Ordo Missae the Church would, like in 1970, be thrown into another identity crisis: more souls would probably be lost than gained, and more hearts would harden with pride and avarice than soften with charity and fidelity to God's Fatherly plan.


Pray for Pope Benedict XVI!
__________________
but grace can still be found within the gale,
with fear and reverence raise your ragged sail.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Dec 9, '07, 11:12 pm
Darnok Darnok is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2007
Posts: 89
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

I've wondered if part of the issue is how much of the Church today grew up with the Tridentine Mass and how many grew up with the Vernacular Mass.
I am a cradle Catholic who grew up in the Post-V-II Church. I have never been to a Tridentine Mass in my life. I strongly believe that the traditional mass MUST be preserved. With the same strength that I believe that it should be preserved, I also believe that I personally am not called to be one of those who does the preserving. In fact, I don't even know if there is a Tridentine Mass in my Diocese and I live in Hawaii.
Here's what I'm getting at, what percentage of the Church as a whole are in a similar position as me? It would be to jarring for a lot of people who grew up only knowing the mass in the Vernacular to suddenly be told it's a "spin off."
I personally believe that the OF and EF terminology is B16 paying respects to Vatican II. While I see the point that traditional Catholics make that Tridentine should be called the Ordinary Form, I'm not to concerned about the fact that it's not. I'm just happy that B16 made the move to preserve the Tridentine Mass.
__________________
- Darnok

While you are proclaiming peace with your lips, be careful to have it even more fully in your heart. - St. Francis of Assisi
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Dec 9, '07, 11:17 pm
jimmy jimmy is offline
Account Under Review
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2004
Posts: 9,742
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
In the Motu Proprio the Holy Father used the terms Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form of the Mass because he sees them as two different expressions of the same Mass.

Yet here it seems many still use the terms TLM (which is incorrect anyways as it is really referring to the 1962 revision of the Missal) and the NO.

What is it about the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form that people do not like?
Why is the one ordinary and the other extraordinary? Is it extraordinary as a great piece of pie is extraordinary? Does that mean it is very good? Why can't they both be ordinary? The Byzantines have four liturgies and none of them are considered extraordinary. They are all ordinary. The Maronites have like seven anaphoras and none of them are extraordinary, they are all ordinary.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Dec 9, '07, 11:55 pm
jj2011 jj2011 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2007
Posts: 688
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
Why is the one ordinary and the other extraordinary? Is it extraordinary as a great piece of pie is extraordinary? Does that mean it is very good? Why can't they both be ordinary? The Byzantines have four liturgies and none of them are considered extraordinary. They are all ordinary. The Maronites have like seven anaphoras and none of them are extraordinary, they are all ordinary.
In the Latin church there used to be liturgical pluralism, but it was many long centuries ago. When St. Pius V imposed his missal in 1570, he allowed rites enjoying a 200 year tradition to continue, but for the most part we had one mass. In 1970, the TLM was suppressed and the Novus Ordo imposed almost everywhere.

Before 1968 most Catholics would have been completely unfamiliar with the notion of multiple anaphoras, since even many of the non-Roman rites used the Roman Canon.

I personally have no problem with liturgical pluralism, provided that there is a credible vernacular liturgy, which we obviously don't have now.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Dec 10, '07, 12:17 am
I_Believe's Avatar
I_Believe I_Believe is offline
Banned
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2006
Posts: 2,505
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
In the Motu Proprio the Holy Father used the terms Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form of the Mass because he sees them as two different expressions of the same Mass.

Yet here it seems many still use the terms TLM (which is incorrect anyways as it is really referring to the 1962 revision of the Missal) and the NO.

What is it about the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form that people do not like?
Well, the 1962 Missal is the one the Pope specified, so it really isn't incorrect to say "TLM".

I like the term Forma Extraordinaria myself, which is more in line with what you are suggesting anyway. Keeps the latin in the recipe
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Dec 10, '07, 1:36 am
Extraordinary Extraordinary is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 9, 2007
Posts: 34
Religion: n/a
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
In the Motu Proprio the Holy Father used the terms Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form of the Mass because he sees them as two different expressions of the same Mass.

Yet here it seems many still use the terms TLM (which is incorrect anyways as it is really referring to the 1962 revision of the Missal) and the NO.

What is it about the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form that people do not like?
Well sadly, some people clearly like to refer to the Ordinary Form of the Mass as the "NO Mass." Many of the same like to underscore what they believe is the "traditional" flavor of the Tridentine Mass.

Maybe we should refer to the Pauline Mass as the "AVM" for "Ancient Vernacular Mass?"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Dec 10, '07, 1:38 am
Extraordinary Extraordinary is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 9, 2007
Posts: 34
Religion: n/a
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
Why is the one ordinary and the other extraordinary? Is it extraordinary as a great piece of pie is extraordinary? Does that mean it is very good? Why can't they both be ordinary? The Byzantines have four liturgies and none of them are considered extraordinary. They are all ordinary. The Maronites have like seven anaphoras and none of them are extraordinary, they are all ordinary.
Because the Church has defined them as such.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Dec 10, '07, 1:40 am
Extraordinary Extraordinary is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 9, 2007
Posts: 34
Religion: n/a
Default Re: Why aren't people using the terms the Pope used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj2011 View Post
In the Latin church there used to be liturgical pluralism, but it was many long centuries ago. When St. Pius V imposed his missal in 1570, he allowed rites enjoying a 200 year tradition to continue, but for the most part we had one mass. In 1970, the TLM was suppressed and the Novus Ordo imposed almost everywhere.

Before 1968 most Catholics would have been completely unfamiliar with the notion of multiple anaphoras, since even many of the non-Roman rites used the Roman Canon.

I personally have no problem with liturgical pluralism, provided that there is a credible vernacular liturgy, which we obviously don't have now.
That is not true.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Should the Pope apologize for using the quote? (Part 1) Mankind Non-Catholic Religions 9 Jan 20, '08 12:34 pm
The Pope SHOULD Apologize Nagoda Catholic News 143 Dec 16, '07 2:35 am
Should the Pope apologize for using the quote? (Part 2) Mankind Non-Catholic Religions 0 Sep 17, '06 4:19 pm
Pope John Paul and the Jewish People Shoshana Conclave: 2005 2 Apr 11, '05 7:33 am




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6652CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6278Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: hazcompat
5222Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4631Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4332Poems and Reflections
Last by: Purgatory Pete
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3295For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2831Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: Jeannie52
2449SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:39 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.