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  #1  
Old Jun 13, '08, 11:59 am
hawkeye hawkeye is offline
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Default Ireland says no.

The Lisbon treaty was defeated in Ireland this Friday 13th June, and thank God.
I hate their sleight of hand ways of trying to force abortion on us, and their corrupt equality laws, and then they wold squeeze religious freedom, just like Christmas was banned in Ireland in days gone by. etc; etc; etc

But I'm sure those Eurocrats will try to conjure up some-other concoction to ram down our throats.

Quote:
Irish voters have rejected the Lisbon Treaty.

With results in from all 43 constituencies, the Lisbon Treaty has been defeated by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6%.
A total of 752,451 people voted in favour of the treaty and 862,415 voted against.
Just 10 constituencies - Clare, Dublin South, Dublin South East, Dublin North, Dublin North Central, Dún Laoghaire, Kildare North, Laois Offaly, Carlow Kilkenny and Meath East - voted in favour of the Treaty.

RTE
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  #2  
Old Jun 13, '08, 12:01 pm
allhers allhers is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Praying that they will find no way to do that!!
So happy that Ireland remains a land free from abortion, God bless you all
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  #3  
Old Jun 13, '08, 12:43 pm
wutru wutru is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Thank God!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...European_Union
Church and State
The EU is a secular body, i.e., there is a separation of church and state. There are no formal ties to any religion and no mention of religion in any current or proposed treaty.[11] Discussion over the draft texts of the European Constitution and later the Treaty of Lisbon have included proposals to mention Christianity and/or God in the preamble of the text. This call has been supported by Christian religious leaders, most notably the Pope.[12] However explicit inclusion of a link to religion faced opposition from secularists and the final Constitution referred to Europe's "Religious and Humanist inheritance". A second attempt to include Christianity in the treaty was undertaken in 2007 with the drafting of the Treaty of Lisbon. Angela Merkel promised the Pope that she would use her influence during Germany's presidency to try to include a reference to Christianity and God in this replacement for the constitution. This has provoked opposition, not least in the German press,[13] and as this inclusion may have caused problems in reaching a final agreement, this attempt was given up.[14] Of the Union's 27 states, only five have an official state religion, these being Cyprus (Cypriot Orthodox Church), Denmark (Danish National Church), Greece (Church of Greece), Malta (Roman Catholic Church) and England in the UK (Church of England). (Some other churches have a close relationship with the state.[15])

In the secularising EU, The Vatican has been vocal against a perceived "militant atheism". It based this on a number of events, for example; the rejection of religious references in the Constitution and Treaty of Lisbon, the rejection by Parliament of Rocco Buttiglione as Justice Commissioner in 2004,[12] while at the same time Parliament approved Peter Mandelson (who is gay[16]) as Trade Commissioner, and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in countries such as the Netherlands, Belgium, and Spain.[12] The European Parliament has also been calling for same-sex marriages to be recognised across the EU.[17] Meanwhile, states such as Latvia and Poland [18] have rejected legislation designed to stop discrimination against homosexuals. This has been stated to be on religious grounds, with homosexual behaviour described as "degenerate" and "unnatural", and the Catholic church influencing public opinion. The difference of opinion between these countries and Brussels has been damaging relations.[19][15]
Keep on fighting Irish people!
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  #4  
Old Jun 13, '08, 12:56 pm
Dale_M Dale_M is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Ireland is the only country in the EU with the courage to put the treaty to a popular vote.
Quote:
It is an embarrassment too to the other 26 leaders across Europe who, for fear of a similar outcome, have refused to stage popular votes and left the ratification process to more easily managed parliamentarians.

Critics of the constitutional treaty in their countries will now renew their 'we were robbed' protests, pointing out that in the only country where voters were allowed a say the people have rejected the institutional reforms.

Indeed, since the voters in France and the Netherlands in 2005 rejected the previous effort to provide the EU with a constitution the question arises whether any EU enterprise of this kind is capable of passing the test of a popular vote.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu...akley.ireland/
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  #5  
Old Jun 13, '08, 1:01 pm
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JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

It is indeed and though I am a strong supporter of Europen co-operation I was for many reasons glad to see a no vote returned. But I don't believe we've seen the end of this and we will see the treaty served up again in another form at another referendum yet.

I think it might be a bit of a shock to the Dail (Irish equivalent to Parliament) though as I think many of them assummed a yes was a foregone conclusion. One TD was even going around with the bizzarre message vote yes because otherwise you will regret it - trying to scare people into voting yes with rather histrionic speeches about us never been seen as truly part of Europe again if we did not blah blah blah.

To understand exactly why the treaty is dubious and how much sovreignty it robbed from individuals states you really have to read it in depth.
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  #6  
Old Jun 13, '08, 1:49 pm
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feargalmac feargalmac is offline
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Talking Re: Ireland says no.

I was so relieved today. The battle was won but is the war over? Time will tell.
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  #7  
Old Jun 13, '08, 2:06 pm
peregrinus_WA peregrinus_WA is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

The EU will crumble under the Extreme Socialistic (I want to use another word, but I will leave it out for now) rules it is trying to impose on people. There already have been reports of cracks in the foundation. Expect the threat of sanctions or judicial activism next.
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  #8  
Old Jun 13, '08, 3:08 pm
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Holly3278 Holly3278 is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

I am also happy that Ireland remains a land free from the evils of abortion. That's awesome!
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  #9  
Old Jun 13, '08, 4:23 pm
PatrickJT914 PatrickJT914 is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

I'd like to give the Irish people who voted against the referendum and defeated it. You certainly didn't put up with any blarney. However, unfortunately the Socialists, "reformed" Communists, Communists, one-world types will try again. They really don't care for religion or basic human rights, especially for the smallest human beings(the unborn)

A word of caution to America, it's already started here. Do you think the powers that be will use a full frontal attack against our rights and protection under our US Constitiution and Bill of Rights? Or, will they try an end run?
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  #10  
Old Jun 13, '08, 4:33 pm
roanoker roanoker is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Bravo!!!
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  #11  
Old Jun 13, '08, 4:43 pm
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye View Post
The Lisbon treaty was defeated in Ireland this Friday 13th June, and thank God.
I
Its a great day for the Irish.
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  #12  
Old Jun 13, '08, 5:03 pm
NPC NPC is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye View Post
The Lisbon treaty was defeated in Ireland this Friday 13th June, and thank God.
I hate their sleight of hand ways of trying to force abortion on us, and their corrupt equality laws, and then they wold squeeze religious freedom, just like Christmas was banned in Ireland in days gone by. etc; etc; etc
I am delighted that Ireland voted 'no' to Lisbon... I'm just curious, since you (and others) have mentioned about the EU trying to force abortion on us, did you not accept the Bishop's Conference statement in which they assured Catholics that the Treaty would not force Ireland to change its laws on abortion and euthanasia? I was quite disappointed to see certain organisations placing leaflets in churches which basically told Catholics that it would be wrong to vote 'yes' because Lisbon would force Ireland to change its position on such issues - this was after the Bishops issued their press statement and after Bishop Michael Smith of Meath told Irish Catholics that it is the Catholic Church in Ireland alone which speaks for the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Anyway, it was actually the 'yes' side which convinced me to vote 'no'! They gave me no convincing arguments - the line they kept spinning was the "Europe has been good to us" one. If that was what we were voting on I think there would have been a resounding yes; but just because something has been good in the past does not mean it is will be good for the future. Also the last scare-tactic which came from the yes people was that renegotiation of the treaty will not be possible. What rubbish. It doesn't say much about our politicians in Brussels if they are not willing to do all it takes to get the best possible deal foreveryone. In Ireland, I think we know better than most that renegotiation is always an option - how many times over the past two decades did politicians meet in Northern Ireland in 'last-ditch' efforts to negotiate a deal?! I think, overall, those who voted against the treaty felt bullied by the majority of politicians who were calling for a yes vote - I found the arrogance of so many of these politicians to be absolutely sickening... And this arrogance continues even after the referendum - the minister for Europe ( I'm not sure if I can name him) had the audacity on television this afternoon to blame the no campaigners for the result - he said that they gave so much misleading information to the electorate that they were confused...
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  #13  
Old Jun 13, '08, 5:17 pm
minkymurph minkymurph is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

I would like to say one thing. I live in the North of Ireland so we were not involved in the vote but the North of Ireland is strongly against abortion. They have tried to introduce it by the back door with some new legislation and Protestants as well as Catholics have spoke out strongly against it. It has been argued that as Northern Ireland is part of the UK, are laws should all be the same. Many women travel to England and Scotland each year to have abortions and it has been argued that to make things less traumatic for them, it should be legal here. A Protestant MP from a party I can't stand pointed out that 1 in 4 children in England are aborted which is horrendous. Those who are very much in favour of union with Britain are fighting hard to legislate for themselves on abortion. The other thing is, the vast majority of the population here agree. It must be the only thing in this part of the world we do agree on! I would like to ask one thing though. It has been proposed that women who want to have abortions should have a travel ban to the UK imposed on them. I don't know if it should go that far as they may just travel to Europe anyway and a lot of politicians who are anti-abortion don't want to impose this. I would prefer women came to the decision not to have an abortion themselves as opposed to using the force of law. What does anyone else think?
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  #14  
Old Jun 14, '08, 4:00 am
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feargalmac feargalmac is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NPC View Post
I am delighted that Ireland voted 'no' to Lisbon... I'm just curious, since you (and others) have mentioned about the EU trying to force abortion on us, did you not accept the Bishop's Conference statement in which they assured Catholics that the Treaty would not force Ireland to change its laws on abortion and euthanasia? I was quite disappointed to see certain organisations placing leaflets in churches which basically told Catholics that it would be wrong to vote 'yes' because Lisbon would force Ireland to change its position on such issues - this was after the Bishops issued their press statement and after Bishop Michael Smith of Meath told Irish Catholics that it is the Catholic Church in Ireland alone which speaks for the Catholic Church in Ireland.
The Bishops were right to a point. The main problem I had was that the Treaty was self-amending without having to go back to the people for approval. Abortion etc. could be brought in at a later stage. If you look at the wording of the amendment itself you'll see what I mean
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  #15  
Old Jun 14, '08, 10:11 am
minkymurph minkymurph is offline
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Default Re: Ireland says no.

I stated in a previous post that I live in the North of Ireland. As far as forcing abortion and same sex marriages on us goes, I don't believe this is coming from Protestants because here in the North, we have as many Protestants fighting these things as Catholics. As far as I know, anyone who professes Christianity irrespective of denomination, would be against these things. The DUP, a political party that I intensely dislike and would never vote for, has fought very hard against these things. They did not succeed where same sex marriage is concerned but so far anyway, they have succeeded in preventing new legislation being passed which would allow abortion by the back door. I believe the enemy is Atheistic secularism and not Protestants. We in the North have secular pressure groups who want to do away with faith schools. They have used our troubled history as a reason for all schools becoming integraded and they want to abolish teaching religious education in schools despite the fact that the majority of parents, even those who send their children to integraded schools, want it taught. Secularist us the argument that if religion was taught only in the home or by the Church it would help the peace process, but this arguement is flawed as I know personally, many staunch loyalists and ardent Republicans who are atheists who state they can't abide either Christians or devout Catholics and hate religionists. Secualrists argue religion causes divisions and hatred and I think we need to be careful as some of the comments made here lend weight to their arguement. Protestants and Catholics have no shortage of things to disagree on but to my knowledge, abortion and homosexuality are not among them. I think it's a mistake to say Protestants are trying to impose these things. It's politicians who may profess to believe Christianity, but will do whatever is necessary to keep to public opinion on their side in order to stay in power and it has little to do with what they may or may not believe to be moral.
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