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  #106  
Old Dec 2, '08, 9:34 am
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by rosarygirl7 View Post
I wasn't sure where this question should go! I thought in Sacred Scripture because that's sort of what the idea was based on. I was watching a program about Galileo/Copernicus and it said that the Catholic Church had a dogma that the Earth was the center of the universe! I said I was sure that wasn't true and I would look it up... but I can't find anything! Does anyone here know?
But the Earth IS the center of the Universe.
It is the center of OUR universe.
Every star's distance is measured from Earth.
No human can survive very long away from this planet.
Of course everything revolves around us!
You don't hear anyone say that the earth rotated to expose the sun at 6:27 am in anytown USA.
Common sense shows that the sun "Rises" in the East and "Sets" in the West.
In the same way every heavenly body revolves around us. It is a commonly observable phenomenon.

OK the above is a little silly according to our current world view. But I post it to illustrate two points.
1) To the ancients, the readily observable movements of the heavenly bodies along with no sensation of movement on our part meant that we were fixed and everything else flowed around us.

2) We are fixed upon this planet for our very survival. Regardless of the mechanics of how the heavenly bodies fuction or how the universe is structured, Our universe begins and ends here on mother earth. Therefore the earth is really and truly the Center of our human universe.

Peace
James
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... if I have all faith so as to move mountians but have not love, I am nothing.(1Cor 13:2)


The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Oh my God , I will continue
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  #107  
Old Dec 2, '08, 10:34 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
But the Earth IS the center of the Universe.
It is the center of OUR universe.
Every star's distance is measured from Earth.
No human can survive very long away from this planet.
Of course everything revolves around us!
You don't hear anyone say that the earth rotated to expose the sun at 6:27 am in anytown USA.
Common sense shows that the sun "Rises" in the East and "Sets" in the West.
In the same way every heavenly body revolves around us. It is a commonly observable phenomenon.

OK the above is a little silly according to our current world view. But I post it to illustrate two points.
1) To the ancients, the readily observable movements of the heavenly bodies along with no sensation of movement on our part meant that we were fixed and everything else flowed around us.

2) We are fixed upon this planet for our very survival. Regardless of the mechanics of how the heavenly bodies fuction or how the universe is structured, Our universe begins and ends here on mother earth. Therefore the earth is really and truly the Center of our human universe.

Peace
James
Acentrism postulates no center. So God could have just put a label on the earth - center of creation.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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  #108  
Old Dec 2, '08, 10:44 am
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
Actually, heliocentrism has been rejected long ago. The sun is not the center of the universe.

That leaves acentrism (there is no center) and geocentrism.

Hi buffalo. I think all would agree that acentrists still accepts the sun is fixed and the earth orbits it while turning around once every 24 hours. You are quite correct is saying that acentrism leaves geocentrism AS A POSSIBILITY. And this is the crux of the whole Galileo affair/Copernican revolution, The Church of 1616 and 1633 was never shown to be wrong. This paradigm thus changes the history of the affair somewhat, don't you think?
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  #109  
Old Dec 2, '08, 10:47 am
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
When I twirl about in my living room, the entire universe revolves around me -- I can see it happening!
StAnastasia, when one has to resort to trying to be funny in order to argue a point then it is quite obvious to me that heliocentric domination you guys enjoyed for the last 250 years is beginning to look suspect.
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  #110  
Old Dec 2, '08, 11:18 am
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Hi buffalo. I think all would agree that acentrists still accepts the sun is fixed and the earth orbits it while turning around once every 24 hours. You are quite correct is saying that acentrism leaves geocentrism AS A POSSIBILITY. And this is the crux of the whole Galileo affair/Copernican revolution, The Church of 1616 and 1633 was never shown to be wrong. This paradigm thus changes the history of the affair somewhat, don't you think?

Agreed.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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  #111  
Old Dec 2, '08, 11:36 am
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by cassini View Post
StAnastasia, when one has to resort to trying to be funny in order to argue a point then it is quite obvious to me that heliocentric domination you guys enjoyed for the last 250 years is beginning to look suspect.
I'm happy you were amused, but that wasn't humor; it is the simple truth. Motion is not absolute but relative to the perceiver.

StAnastasia
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  #112  
Old Dec 2, '08, 12:27 pm
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
I'm happy you were amused, but that wasn't humor; it is the simple truth. Motion is not absolute but relative to the perceiver.

StAnastasia
Well said.
All of these things really depend upon the perspective of the individual.
It also depends somewhat on the context of a given conversation. It can be accurately said that the earth is not the center of the universe strictly based upon the known or widely accepted actions of heavenly bodies. It can just as accurately be said that the earth IS the center based upon the fact that this is our home planet and everything we observe, know, measure etc about the universe is done from and in the time space perspective of our earthly existance.

The reason we now understand that the earth revolves and rotates around the sun which in turn rotates around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy is simply because it seems to most accurately describe the motion of the bodies involved.
It does not change the fact that, for humans, the earth remains the center of our universe.

Peace
James
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... if I have all faith so as to move mountians but have not love, I am nothing.(1Cor 13:2)


The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Oh my God , I will continue
to perform, all my actions
for the love of Thee
Amen.
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  #113  
Old Dec 2, '08, 12:57 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
The reason we now understand that the earth revolves and rotates around the sun which in turn rotates around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy is simply because it seems to most accurately describe the motion of the bodies involved. It does not change the fact that, for humans, the earth remains the center of our universe. Peace,James
James, nicely put! Fifteenth-century Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464) applied an ancient Kabbalistic commonplace to God in the universe: "God is like a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere."

StAnastasia
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  #114  
Old Dec 2, '08, 1:07 pm
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
I'm happy you were amused, but that wasn't humor; it is the simple truth. Motion is not absolute but relative to the perceiver.

StAnastasia
But as Cardinal Bellarmine would have pointed out StAnastasia: 'Ah, but we know it is we who are turning around in such a situation.'
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  #115  
Old Dec 2, '08, 1:28 pm
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
Well said.
All of these things really depend upon the perspective of the individual.
It also depends somewhat on the context of a given conversation. It can be accurately said that the earth is not the center of the universe strictly based upon the known or widely accepted actions of heavenly bodies. It can just as accurately be said that the earth IS the center based upon the fact that this is our home planet and everything we observe, know, measure etc about the universe is done from and in the time space perspective of our earthly existance.

The reason we now understand that the earth revolves and rotates around the sun which in turn rotates around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy is simply because it seems to most accurately describe the motion of the bodies involved.
It does not change the fact that, for humans, the earth remains the center of our universe.

Peace
James
Hi JRKH. Most of what you say is true, To us on earth, the earth is the centre of the universe. this is a crucial philosophical and theological statement. Let us now enter theology. For whom did God create the universe? Answer, MAN. What was His intention in creating the universe? Answer, to bring night and day and seasons and years and so that we would know him by the things that are made (signs). How did God achieve this? Answer: by placing us at the centre of the universe whereupon a whole doctrine of geocentricism emerged, completed by St Thomas Aquinas. But they now say God deceived us by creating the universe so that we would think we were at the centre of the universe when all the time we are on a planet orbiting the sun at the edge of a galaxy in turn flying out in an expanding universe. But I thought God never deceived us? Answer: He never has.
So, what did this new science achieve? Answer; It eliminated that proof for the existence for God that was indisputable. Geocentrism is, has to be, theocentrism. Thus God was removed from the minds of man based on created things. Following it came the rest of His creation, all now explained by 'natural processes.' Indeed so convincing was this replacement that Atheism was born out of it for they now has a complete system without the NEED for God.
And why are Satan and his demons roaring with laughter? Because even Catholics are promoting this natural process as the truth of it.
Well God help us all.
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  #116  
Old Dec 2, '08, 2:07 pm
John oxios John oxios is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
No, Luther did not think Galileo was way off.

StAnastasia

Hello Anastasia,
Opps my bad.. it was Copernicus,

Nicolaus Copernicus (February 19, 1473 – May 24, 1543) was the first astronomer to formulate a scientifically-based heliocentric cosmology that displaced the Earth from the center of the universe.


Luther:

"There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must needs invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth."

The scriptural passage to which Luther refers is Joshua 10:10-15. Elsewhere Luther refers to Copernicus as "a fool who went against Holy Writ". It is this latter quote that usually makes it into the textbooks

From:

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/.../response.html


God bless,
John
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Gossip does not allow him the right to defend himself, it condemns without trial.
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  #117  
Old Dec 2, '08, 2:51 pm
John oxios John oxios is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by rosarygirl7 View Post
I wasn't sure where this question should go! I thought in Sacred Scripture because that's sort of what the idea was based on. I was watching a program about Galileo/Copernicus and it said that the Catholic Church had a dogma that the Earth was the center of the universe! I said I was sure that wasn't true and I would look it up... but I can't find anything! Does anyone here know?

Hello rosarygirl,
The Church in Copernicus and Galileo's time may have been wrong, but How the Earth revolves around the Sun was not a matter of Faith, in which the Holy Spirit will not let the Church fail.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/.../response.html

A Brief Note on Religious Objections to Copernicus:
I get asked about this a great deal, in large measure because the common lore is that the Catholic Church immediately condemned Copernicus and his system, while enlightened Protestants eagerly embraced both. In fact, the response from the leading Protestant theologians of Copernicus' time was swift and negative, though even this response was mostly remarks in passing in conversation or sermons, nothing resembling an organized anti-Copernican campaign. The Catholic Church, despite later official hostility, was largely silent at first. Silence, however, does not necessarily imply approval, as the events of the following century were to so forcefully prove.


The Church said that:


1616:

* The Church officially declares that the heliocentric theory is "philosophically false and at least an erroneous belief.

When they rejected Copernicus theory, it didn't necessarily any other theory Dogma of the Church.


Galileo faced two specific charges:

* Disobedience of Bellarmine's 1616 order.
* Misleading censors who published his book.

What was really going on in the background was that enemies of Galileo convinced Pope Urban VIII that a character in the Dialogue named Simplicio who ineptly defended the Ptolemaic system was a thinly veiled caricature of the Pope himself. This provided a pretext for making an example of Galileo, albeit on trumped up charges. Galileo was his own worst enemy in this situation, as he vastly overestimated his influence in Rome, and the degree to which his well-deserved fame would protect him.

God bles,
johnnie o
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  #118  
Old Dec 2, '08, 3:16 pm
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by John oxios View Post
Hello rosarygirl,
The Church in Copernicus and Galileo's time may have been wrong, but How the Earth revolves around the Sun was not a matter of Faith, in which the Holy Spirit will not let the Church fail.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/.../response.html

A Brief Note on Religious Objections to Copernicus:
I get asked about this a great deal, in large measure because the common lore is that the Catholic Church immediately condemned Copernicus and his system, while enlightened Protestants eagerly embraced both. In fact, the response from the leading Protestant theologians of Copernicus' time was swift and negative, though even this response was mostly remarks in passing in conversation or sermons, nothing resembling an organized anti-Copernican campaign. The Catholic Church, despite later official hostility, was largely silent at first. Silence, however, does not necessarily imply approval, as the events of the following century were to so forcefully prove.

The Church said that:
1616:

* The Church officially declares that the heliocentric theory is "philosophically false and at least an erroneous belief.

When they rejected Copernicus theory, it didn't necessarily any other theory Dogma of the Church.

Galileo faced two specific charges:

* Disobedience of Bellarmine's 1616 order.
* Misleading censors who published his book.

What was really going on in the background was that enemies of Galileo convinced Pope Urban VIII that a character in the Dialogue named Simplicio who ineptly defended the Ptolemaic system was a thinly veiled caricature of the Pope himself. This provided a pretext for making an example of Galileo, albeit on trumped up charges. Galileo was his own worst enemy in this situation, as he vastly overestimated his influence in Rome, and the degree to which his well-deserved fame would protect him.

God bles,
johnnie o
Hi rosarygirl (my what a lovely name you chose). I'm afraid that there are many inaccuracies in John O's account. The reason for this is because those who hated/hate the Catholic Church have their version of the history under discussion, and Catholics, because of their perceived view that the Church was proven to have been wrong in their anti-Copernican decree, have also ammended history to 'save the Church's divine guidance. Both sides therefore have perverted history so much that few today are aware of the truth of it.

The fact - taken directly from the records - are that when Copernicus published his book On the Revolutions in 1543, it was prefaced by a Protestant Osiander, who knew both Churches, Catholic and Protestant, interpreted the geocentric passages of Scripture in the same way and that Copernicus's book would not be tolerated if he did not pull the wool over the eyes of all. So what he did was prefaced it with a denial that Copernicus actually presented heliocentricism as a TRUTH, but only as a tool to further the progress of science. Thus his book was tolerated by the Church in silence.

The second misrepresentation is to say 'Galileo faced two specific charges:

* Disobedience of Bellarmine's 1616 order.
* Misleading censors who published his book.

Galileo's ONLY charge was his belief in and his presentation of a fixed sun and moving earth as compatible with the Scriptures. He was never charged with disobedience, insulting a pope in his writings, or for misleading the Church's censors. These were brought up in his trial yes, but were not the charges.
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  #119  
Old Dec 2, '08, 4:26 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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But as Cardinal Bellarmine would have pointed out StAnastasia: 'Ah, but we know it is we who are turning around in such a situation.'
How do we know that?
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  #120  
Old Dec 2, '08, 4:27 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: Dogma of the Earth as center of the universe

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Originally Posted by John oxios View Post
Hello Anastasia,
Opps my bad.. it was Copernicus,
Luther:
"The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth."
That passage was written four years before De revolutionibus appeared.
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