Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Feb 5, '09, 9:21 am
sambos671 sambos671 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Anyone?
__________________
Not a part of the Tiber Swim Team. I am a member of the Tiber Bungee Jumping team since 2008
Quote:
Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.
  #2  
Old Feb 5, '09, 9:32 am
spoiltvictorian spoiltvictorian is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2008
Posts: 350
Religion: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

The papal bull is the medium, not the message. They were issued for all kinds of things in the Middle Ages.
  #3  
Old Feb 5, '09, 9:46 am
sambos671 sambos671 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoiltvictorian View Post
The papal bull is the medium, not the message. They were issued for all kinds of things in the Middle Ages.
how do you sort through what has been declaired Ex Cathedra?
__________________
Not a part of the Tiber Swim Team. I am a member of the Tiber Bungee Jumping team since 2008
Quote:
Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.
  #4  
Old Feb 5, '09, 9:53 am
spoiltvictorian spoiltvictorian is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2008
Posts: 350
Religion: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambos671 View Post
how do you sort through what has been declaired Ex Cathedra?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_i..._infallibility
  #5  
Old Feb 5, '09, 10:21 am
sambos671 sambos671 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoiltvictorian View Post
Well, according to this statement. There is only two definate instance of ex-cathedra statements. And its only ex-cathedra after it has been reviewed by the magesterium? How effective is this doctrine then? Also how does Onetruecatholic (whatever the name actually is) say that that Papal bulls indicate that there is only salvation in the church despite everything else?

Quote:
It is incorrect to hold that doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare.

Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact which has been confirmed by the Church's magisterium [1]. However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify.

Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):

"Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the immaculate conception; and
Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the assumption of Mary.
I don't see that mentioned in this list.
__________________
Not a part of the Tiber Swim Team. I am a member of the Tiber Bungee Jumping team since 2008
Quote:
Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.
  #6  
Old Feb 5, '09, 10:29 am
spoiltvictorian spoiltvictorian is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2008
Posts: 350
Religion: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambos671 View Post
Well, according to this statement. There is only two definate instance of ex-cathedra statements. And its only ex-cathedra after it has been reviewed by the magesterium? How effective is this doctrine then? Also how does Onetruecatholic (whatever the name actually is) say that that Papal bulls indicate that there is only salvation in the church despite everything else?


I don't see that mentioned in this list.
I'm not sure what you're asking me since I am not Catholic. I still question the Pope's ability to make such statements without convening an ecumenical council, which has not happened for awhile.
  #7  
Old Feb 5, '09, 10:30 am
sambos671 sambos671 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoiltvictorian View Post
I'm not sure what you're asking me since I am not Catholic. I still question the Pope's ability to make such statements without convening an ecumenical council, which has not happened for awhile.
I'm hoping that you know more than I do. I don't think he can either. But what do I know?
__________________
Not a part of the Tiber Swim Team. I am a member of the Tiber Bungee Jumping team since 2008
Quote:
Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.
  #8  
Old Feb 5, '09, 10:52 am
tz620q tz620q is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2007
Posts: 30
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambos671 View Post
I'm hoping that you know more than I do. I don't think he can either. But what do I know?
In answer to the OP, a papal bull is not automatically ex cathedra. From wiki:

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:

1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)


That is the hard and short of it. As you noted, only two papal bulls are actually considered to contain infallible statements. So to answer you question, the Pope can and does have a singular ability to speak infallibly; but nearly every infallible pronouncement since 1870 has come from conciliar documents. I find it amusing that Lord Acton's quote about absolute power corrupting absolutely was refering to papal infallibility, probably the least used power in recent history.

There is an unfortunate historical footnote to Vatican 1. The draft documents for Vatican 1 contained 15 chapters, only 4 (including the papal infallibility section) were formalized and published before the Piedmontese army took over the Vatican and the council had to be ended. The original draft was similar to Lumen Gentium from Vatican 2 in that papal infallibility should be understood as only part of the teaching authority of the whole Magesterium and not as an isolated power. Hope this quick note helps. May God be with you today.
  #9  
Old Feb 5, '09, 5:16 pm
OneTrueCathApos OneTrueCathApos is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 31, 2008
Posts: 2,244
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Please read:

The Only Begotten by Michael Malone
The Loyolas and the Cabots by Sister Catherine M.I.C.M.
The Four Marks of Christ's Church by Catholic viewpoint
The Catholic Dogma by Fr. Michael Mueller
Father Feeney and the Truth About Salvation by Fr. Feeney
Extra Ecclesian Nulla: The Foundational Dogma by Mr. Brian Kelley.

The Early Church Fathers, as well as the popes taught what Jesus had taught to his Apostles, and that was there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. Why is that so hard to understand when Christ himself implicated this??
  #10  
Old Feb 5, '09, 8:04 pm
O.S. Luke O.S. Luke is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2004
Posts: 2,003
Religion: United Methodist
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

OTCA:

Please read the original post.
__________________
- Protestant, from the Latin protestans, protestantis. Literally, "Standing for a witness."
  #11  
Old Feb 6, '09, 5:30 am
sambos671 sambos671 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 1,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTrueCathApos View Post
Please read:

The Only Begotten by Michael Malone
The Loyolas and the Cabots by Sister Catherine M.I.C.M.
The Four Marks of Christ's Church by Catholic viewpoint
The Catholic Dogma by Fr. Michael Mueller
Father Feeney and the Truth About Salvation by Fr. Feeney
Extra Ecclesian Nulla: The Foundational Dogma by Mr. Brian Kelley.

The Early Church Fathers, as well as the popes taught what Jesus had taught to his Apostles, and that was there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. Why is that so hard to understand when Christ himself implicated this??
In the days of the ECF the only Christian Churches were Catholic. The point is not taken. Today we have the Orthodox, Copts, Catholic, Protestants. All have the same dogmatic view of the symbol of faith (save mention of the "one Catholic and apostolic church" its not believed or its defined differently but the rest of the symbol of faith is believed not like the gnostics.) Totally different enviornment. since Sacred Scripture is one aspect of the Magesterium there is belief in Jesus and Vatican II is taken as valid. But the point of this thread was to help me understand how ex-cathedra is determined and communicated and note just because a Pope says something its not taken as ex-cathedra. Bulls which we get our word Bulletin is just that a Bulletin not necissarily a ex-cathedra statement.
__________________
Not a part of the Tiber Swim Team. I am a member of the Tiber Bungee Jumping team since 2008
Quote:
Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.
  #12  
Old Feb 6, '09, 6:13 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
Veteran Member
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 9,391
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

The Bull may or may not contain an ex cathedra statement. In order for something to be considered ex cathedra, the language will show it. The most common form that this language will take would be something along the lines of "It has been the consistant teaching of the Church that..." or so. In other words, the statement in question will be clear that it is the part being defined.


Now, previous bulls may be cited in an ex cathedra statement, to show the historical teaching or context. That does not grant ex cathedra status to them.

These statements are clear when they are written. The reason that you cannot get a good count on how many there have been is because there is still a little discussion about what is and is not truely ex cathedra. Most theologins hold that canonization of saints IS and ex cathedra statement, even though the form is not the same. Likewise, some are willing to retrofit the dogma to count writtings that seem to contain these types of statements, while others are not.

A good example of an ex cathedra statement would be the statement by Pope JPII about women being ordained. One would have thought that it was a non-issue, but he still stated that it was not possible and why.
__________________
Everyone else had a signature, so I thought I needed one too.

Ralph
  #13  
Old Feb 6, '09, 7:10 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,971
Religion: Catholic
Post Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal View Post
Most theologians hold that canonization of saints IS and ex cathedra statement, even though the form is not the same.
Not to put words in your mouth, but I'm wondering if you meant to say "Many theologians ... "?
  #14  
Old Feb 6, '09, 7:18 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,971
Religion: Catholic
Post Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambos671 View Post
Anyone?
I guess the question has been fairly well covered already, but I would like to add one little comment.

As others have said, some Bulls contain ex cathedra statements. Usually, the ex cathedra statement is just one single sentence of the Bull -- for example, the Bull Ineffabilis Deus (December 8, 1854) contains more than 100 sentences, but only one of them is an ex cathedra statement:

Quote:
Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own:
We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.
  #15  
Old Feb 6, '09, 7:22 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,971
Religion: Catholic
Post Re: Does Papal bull = Ex Cathedra?

This sentence in aforementioned wikipedia section caught my attention:

Quote:
For modern-day Church documents, there is no need for speculation as to which are officially ex cathedra , because the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can be consulted directly on this question.
This, to me, is a clear violation of the principle of "Separation of Church and Wiki". (Actually I just made that up, but you get the idea. The statement is "preaching" rather than reporting facts. Not that there's anything wrong with preaching.) I would suggest changing the words "there is no need for speculation" ...

Quote:
For modern-day Church documents, Catholics generally do not engage in speculation as to which are officially ex cathedra , because the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can be consulted directly on this question.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6597CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6138Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
5162Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4627Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: neweggs
4287Poems and Reflections
Last by: Purgatory Pete
4053OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3290For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2822Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: tawny
2448SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:21 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.