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  #1  
Old Dec 15, '09, 1:55 pm
Abu Abu is offline
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Default Can non-Catholics be saved?

Of course, but how? If there is an interest, we might develop this further.

Christ's Church has never taught that only faithful Catholics can be saved, as a few misguided souls seem to think, and this was understood very early in the life of the Church.
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  #2  
Old Dec 15, '09, 2:15 pm
Trishie Trishie is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

"Catechism of the Catholic Church" Imprimi Potest. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict)

"Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation"


From the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic, LUMEN GENTIUM, solemnly promulgated by his holiness Pope Paul v1 on November 21, 1964

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.

Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
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  #3  
Old Dec 15, '09, 2:44 pm
prettylarge prettylarge is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trishie View Post
"Catechism of the Catholic Church" Imprimi Potest. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict)

"Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation"
Does this mean if someone is born a Catholic and brought up in a Catholic household, and then turn atheist, they can't go to heaven?
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  #4  
Old Dec 15, '09, 3:13 pm
Trishie Trishie is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

I would ask how sincere and honest is their unbelief.
I would believe they must be open, and strive to seek God to the best of their ability, and live a life in accordance with the command to love others as self, living Christian values.
None of us Catholic, Christian or otherwise can go to heaven if we do not live practical Christian love towards others. Jesus gives the final word on judgement, as divine Judge Himself, according to practical love of others.

Matthew 25 verses 31-46...Jesus' words on who will be saved:

"The Last Judgement"

"When the Son of Man comes in all His glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men from one another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. then the King shall say to those on his right hand," Come you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was a stranger and you made me welcome. I was thirsty and you gave me drink; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.

Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you?

And the King will answer, " I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."

Next he will say to those on his left "Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for when I was hungry you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me."
Then it will be their turn to ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty; a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and not come to your help?"
Then he will answer, "I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.

And since Jesus is the very Person who will judge all of us, I think we have to accept HIS criterion for who may be saved! His criterion is salvation depends upon our charity towards other people, which He regards as charity directly given to Him. He has given us the Church and the Sacraments to help us to live thus, but even if we are utterly sincere in unbelief, we must still live the command to love others as self.
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  #5  
Old Dec 15, '09, 4:01 pm
revert_jen revert_jen is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prettylarge View Post
Does this mean if someone is born a Catholic and brought up in a Catholic household, and then turn atheist, they can't go to heaven?
I think it depends to some extent on why they became an atheist. Was it because they had been poorly catechised and never understood the nature of the Church? Or did they become an atheist because that made it psychologically easier for them to engage in a life of sin? Did they lose the faith because they never fed it, or because they never received it properly in the first place?

And that is all assuming that they do not repent of their atheism and become reconciled to God and His Church before they die.

It's painful to think about, and I don't think it's possible to understand it completely this side of the grave, but Christ told us that some people will not go to Heaven ever. A person who was raised with a real understanding of the faith, who discarded it so that they could more easily live a life of cheating, murdering, and having illicit sex, and who never repented of that choice, seems as good a candidate for making the downward journey as I can think of. (This is of course a hypothetical person that I have made up, because it would be very wrong to make such a judgement about an actual person.)

"Everyone to whom much is given, of him will much be required..." (Lk. 12:48b)

--Jen
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  #6  
Old Dec 15, '09, 4:51 pm
Abu Abu is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Very helpful replies.
Only God can judge the guilt of anyone according to their conscience and actions.

We must judge their actions, words and writing according to truth.
As you thing so do you act, thus we need to have the mind of the Church.
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  #7  
Old Dec 15, '09, 9:54 pm
thistle thistle is online now
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prettylarge View Post
Does this mean if someone is born a Catholic and brought up in a Catholic household, and then turn atheist, they can't go to heaven?
Whatever their starting point, anyone who dies as an atheist goes to Hell.
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  #8  
Old Dec 15, '09, 11:26 pm
Abu Abu is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

prettylarge

Check my post above: Only God can judge the guilt of anyone at death according to their conscience and actions. As far as your scenario goes it would be very uncertain that such a person could be saved, but we cannot give a final judgment.

Christ teaches through His Church that "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it." (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 14).
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  #9  
Old Dec 16, '09, 6:55 am
Shlomey Shlomey is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Let me link to an essay on this issue. I do not take the "optimistic view" that many people will be saved.

http://papsttreu.blogspot.com/2009/1...salvation.html

A former Catholic who refuses to repent until death, will not be saved. Likewise to anyone who knows of the Gospel of Christ and His Church and still refuses to enter into her.
__________________
And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required."Luke 12:48.
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  #10  
Old Dec 16, '09, 7:19 pm
Abu Abu is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

There were two theological schools of thought: One based on the Church as absolutely necessary for salvation that could not see how non-baptised could be saved (Origen); the other, also from the earliest times, that saw that the non-baptised were also open to salvation like the pagan Cornelius in the Acts of the Apostles "an upright and Godfearing man" (Ambrose, Augustine). The latter thought was supported by St Thomas Aquinas.

Pope St Clement I, wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: "Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." [Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

The proviso is that "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it." (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 14). And only God can judge athe guilt of a particular person.
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  #11  
Old Dec 16, '09, 7:30 pm
Tradycja Tradycja is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Funny this question comes up all the time but no one quotes the THREE DOGMATIC STATEMENTS on this very issue!! Every Catholic must adhere to these dogmas, just like every Catholic must adhere to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.


Extraordinary Magisterium ---EX CATHEDRA

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence--Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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  #12  
Old Dec 16, '09, 7:33 pm
Tradycja Tradycja is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

By the way this is a great little paper on Vatican II and No Salvation Outside the Church:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23249763/V...am-Nulla-Salus
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  #13  
Old Dec 16, '09, 8:06 pm
Abu Abu is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Before quoting a teaching, the historical context of that teaching or admonition should be known. So to sum up:

The Papal Bull Unam Sanctam was written during a dispute with the King of France. The Pope was merely stating that salvation comes from Christ through the Church He established. Further, it was written for those who already belonged to the Church including the King of France. It did not and does not address those who are outside of the Church.

The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that "The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved." The Council of Trent, 1545-1563, pictured by some dissenters as triumphant and absolutist, defined the dogma of baptism by desire thus on to what Vatican II taught: "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it." [Lumen Gentium, 14 (The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church)]. Here we have a typical development of doctrine.

"Thus the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man's salvation...as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved." (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, SJ, 1974, p 236).

Thus, just as without Christ there is no salvation, so without the Church there is no salvation. [Catechism of the Catholic Church # 846 - # 848]. The Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not a person knows of its divine origin and founding, is the body through which ALL salvation comes to anyone whom God deems worthy to receive it.

The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). [Msgr Cormac P Burke, OSV Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine].
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  #14  
Old Dec 16, '09, 8:19 pm
Tradycja Tradycja is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu View Post
Before quoting a teaching, the historical context of that teaching or admonition should be known.
So before quoting the dogmatic teaching of Transubstantiation am I also required to give the "historical context" or just for this one?
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  #15  
Old Dec 16, '09, 8:59 pm
Tradycja Tradycja is offline
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Default Re: Can non-Catholics be saved?

An Ecumenical Council says that Unam Sanctam is dogmatic:

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council 1512-17, session # 11:

“Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution,..”

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum18.htm
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