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  #1  
Old Mar 21, '05, 3:00 am
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default alcohol drinking

Perhaps some Protestants on this board could answer my question. When I attended a Baptist Church, the pastor was very adament that drinking alcohol was not only a sin but he seemed to imply that a saved person would not drink any alcohol even in moderation. I believe that I was the sole person in the congregation to challange him on this. I have nothing against tee totalers but I can find no where in the bible, unless I take things out of context, that supports the 'all alcohol is a sin' belief. I've even found some web sites that claim that Jesus turned water into grape juice! This view seems to be held by a lot of Protestants in this country. I was just wondering why. How did this particular belief come about?

Last edited by Administrator; Mar 24, '05 at 8:28 pm. Reason: derogatory term removed
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  #2  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:04 am
Ghosty Ghosty is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

I know for a fact that Paul recommends drinking wine for certain stomach ailments, but I can't for the life of me remember the verse. Besides, if they had meant grape juice, they would have said grape juice. Have a pint in honor of your poor, misguided pastor
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  #3  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:23 am
mtr01 mtr01 is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty
I know for a fact that Paul recommends drinking wine for certain stomach ailments, but I can't for the life of me remember the verse. Besides, if they had meant grape juice, they would have said grape juice. Have a pint in honor of your poor, misguided pastor
Here ya go:

Quote:
1Ti 5:23 Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy frequent infirmities.

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  #4  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:28 am
SPOKENWORD SPOKENWORD is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Wine numbs the senses.Thats why it was prescribed as medication. Today there are drugs to ease pain. Just look at all those with drinking problems in this country. If you open the door thats what can happen. Why give satan an oppening to come in.Lets us not be the cause for a brother to fall by our drinking. God Bless
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  #5  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:31 am
Almost Catholic Almost Catholic is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Your experience, I think, is a minority report within the protestant community. There are certain segments that prohibit all sorts of things: such as dancing, playing cards etc. One can find that if one looks, but not a predominant belief. I am currently a Presbyterian and that view is not held, although anyone is free to choose not to drink.
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  #6  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:37 am
mtr01 mtr01 is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

The way I see it is that our Lord's first miracle was to turn water into wine. Now it was sinful to drink wine, I'm pretty sure Christ would have refused, rather than begin his ministry with that particular miracle. Drunkeness certainly is prohibited, but drinking alcohol in moderation isn't.
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  #7  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:49 am
Ghosty Ghosty is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Quote:
Wine numbs the senses.Thats why it was prescribed as medication. Today there are drugs to ease pain. Just look at all those with drinking problems in this country. If you open the door thats what can happen. Why give satan an oppening to come in.Lets us not be the cause for a brother to fall by our drinking. God Bless
Point taken! Tonight when I go out, I'll get hopped up on vicadin instead

Seriously, though. It's drunkenness, not drinking, that's a problem. It's like saying that we shouldn't diet or exercise due to the very real problem of annorexia in this country. Moderate use of alcohol can lighten the mood and help people bond, just like it did back at the Wedding Feast at Cana. Jesus wasn't performing that miracle because the bridegroom stubbed his toe
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  #8  
Old Mar 21, '05, 8:53 am
Steven Merten Steven Merten is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOKENWORD
Wine numbs the senses.Thats why it was prescribed as medication. Today there are drugs to ease pain. Just look at all those with drinking problems in this country. If you open the door thats what can happen. Why give satan an oppening to come in.Lets us not be the cause for a brother to fall by our drinking. God Bless
Hello Spokenword,

Are you suggesting that Mary and Jesus were opening the door for Satan at the wedding of Cana?

Also I have never heard of a people worried about people leaving a celibration because the host ran out of grape juice.

Were the 150 gallons of wine Jesus and Mary produced at the wedding banquet simply restoring the medicinal wine shortage at the celibration?



NAB JOHN 2:1
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."


Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it. And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."


Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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  #9  
Old Mar 21, '05, 9:47 am
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Alcohol is fine in moderation. There is no Biblical basis for all drinking being bad (drunkeness is condemned often, however).

That being said, I personally think it's a good idea to stay away from alcohol. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a great article on alcohol that concludes:

Careful observations of its effects, in private practice and in extensive hospital experience, compel the writer to subscribe to this conclusion: "Alcohol in health is often a curse; alcohol in disease is mostly a blessing." From a sociological standpoint, we are compelled by incontrovertible evidence to acknowledge that it is of all causes the most frequent source of poverty, unhappiness, divorce, suicide, immorality, crime, insanity, disease, and death.
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  #10  
Old Mar 21, '05, 9:52 am
Ghosty Ghosty is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Funny, from a medical and sociological perspective, I could argue that poverty, unhappiness, divorce, insanity, and disease are the most frequent causes of drinking, not the other way around. Kind of a chicken-or-the-egg situation, eh?

I'm just being obnoxious, I actually agree with you for the most part. I'm just not going to part with my drink, so I don't intend to force anyone else to.
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  #11  
Old Mar 21, '05, 10:18 am
SPOKENWORD SPOKENWORD is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Merten
Hello Spokenword,

Are you suggesting that Mary and Jesus were opening the door for Satan at the wedding of Cana?

Also I have never heard of a people worried about people leaving a celibration because the host ran out of grape juice.

Were the 150 gallons of wine Jesus and Mary produced at the wedding banquet simply restoring the medicinal wine shortage at the celibration?



NAB JOHN 2:1
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."


Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it. And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."


Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
Hi Steve, Did you know that Jesus was refered as the NEW WINE. I believe this is the Wine the Apostles got drunk on the day of Pentacost. Do you think it was possible at the time of Christ that one culd get arrested driving under the influence while on their donkey? God Bless
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  #12  
Old Mar 21, '05, 10:21 am
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty
Funny, from a medical and sociological perspective, I could argue that poverty, unhappiness, divorce, insanity, and disease are the most frequent causes of drinking, not the other way around. Kind of a chicken-or-the-egg situation, eh?

I'm just being obnoxious, I actually agree with you for the most part. I'm just not going to part with my drink, so I don't intend to force anyone else to.
I agree. It definitely goes both ways. I just love to throw that quote out there to defend my no alcohol stance. Especially being fresh out of college, I haven't seen much moderate alcohol use in a while .
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  #13  
Old Mar 21, '05, 10:50 am
stillsmallvoice stillsmallvoice is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Hi all!

I was asked once by a curious Eastern Orthodox cyberfriend, who apparently was in cybercorrespondence with a Protestant friend of his, the following:

Quote:
This is something I've always wanted to ask.
This is not an issue with Orthodox Christians, but...it was an issue with some Protestant Christians.

Do you know if it was true or not that anyone living in old Israel at the turn of the eras, (50BCE-100CE) could keep wine from fermenting? IOW, do you use fermented wine at your Pasha Festival? Or can you only use Grape Juice? This may sound like a stupid question to you, but it has caused great controversy in modern christian churches.
And my answer to him was...

I know that some fundamentalist Protestants have a big hang-up about alcohol and that some claim that Jesus never touched a drop of wine. If we allow that Jesus was born a Jew & lived as one (for at least part of his life, I suppose), this is impossible. The consumption of wine was part of Jewish practice then, just like it is now.

I suppose that anyone could make (unfermented) grape juice back then simply by squeezing/stomping grapes. I don't know about preserving the unfermented) grape juice for any length of time simply because the only ways to preserve foodstuffs way back then was by pickling, salting or drying (which would make the grape juice rather yucky!).

First, wine libations were an integral part of the Temple service, in the order of offerings (see Numbers 28 and 29). The Hebrew word for "its drink offering" is nisko & refers to wine, not grape juice. The specific reference to wine per se in Numbers 28:14 is held to be illustrative example that holds for all of the various holyday offerings enumerated in Numbers 28-29.

The blessing "Praised are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who has created the fruit of the vine" is said before drinking wine and grape juice (but not over grapes or raisins; apples and apple juice/oranges and orange juice, etc. also take different blessings).

At the ceremonial Passover meal known as the Seder (http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm), we drink 4 cups of wine. Normally, during the year, when the blessing over wine is recited on Friday night & the evenings of major holydays, and again on Saturday morning & the mornings of major holydays, and on Saturday night when the Sabbath is over & the evenings after major holydays, grape juice may certainly be used (DW & I always have grape juice around for Da Boyz). But on Passover, it is strongly recommended by nearly all (orthodox!) rabbinical authorities that if one insists on drinking grape juice, that at least some wine be mixed in with the grape juice. (Recovering alcoholics & people who are banned from drinking wine for medical reasons, may use all grape juice.) No one is supposed to get drunk at the Passover Seder (we get drunk on our holyday of Purim, http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday9.htm). The Seder includes a very large meal & the minimal amount defined as a "cup" is not that large.

On the Nazirite's having to abstain from wine (see Numbers 6:1-21), several of our Sages comment on the fact that at the conclusion of his vow, he had to bring (inter alia) a sin-offering. I believe that it is our very great medieval Sage, Nahmanides (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/ramban.htm), who says that the Nazirite had to bring a sin-offering because he had taken upon himself a vow (which Judaism frowns upon unless absolutely necessary) that entailed having to deny himself some of the good things which God has permitted us.

I think that my Roman Catholic cyberfriends would agree with us that wine, when properly used, can be a vehicle for holiness. When improperly used, it can be a vehicle for vile unholiness. Wine is, in effect, a kind of tool. It is neither evil nor good; only the use to which it is put and the ends to which it is used can be good or evil. (Even Milton refers to "misused wine.") The scriptures endorses neither teetotalism nor habitual drunkeness.

I read where the famous Protestant evangelist Billy Sunday, upon hearing that Prohibition had become law, said that, "The rein of tears is over...The slums will soon be only a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and comcribs" What a fool! The only people happier than him at that moment were all the gangsters & criminals. Organized crime in the USA made it to the big leagues thanks to Prohibition.

Be well!

ssv
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  #14  
Old Mar 21, '05, 12:44 pm
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Catholic
Your experience, I think, is a minority report within the protestant community. There are certain segments that prohibit all sorts of things: such as dancing, playing cards etc. One can find that if one looks, but not a predominant belief. I am currently a Presbyterian and that view is not held, although anyone is free to choose not to drink.
Hello,

I can't argue that the extreme view is the predominant belief but it does seem that those with the extreme beliefs are the most vocal. It might have to do with my attending an Independent Baptist Church. My sister is LUtheran and she gave me a bottle of wine from a local winery and has asked me to go on a tour of local wineries with her. I think that this is probably a problem with the fundamentalist. I still don't understand how this belief came about.
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  #15  
Old Mar 21, '05, 1:04 pm
Michael C Michael C is offline
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Default Re: alcohol drinking

I had a similiar experience. My uncle who is a noon-denomimational chritian told me the wine Jesus drank had no alcohol in it. he said Jesus was a preist like the Levites from the old testament and that they used to put the wine in vats underground to prevent fermenting. This story has all kinds of holes in it and is contrary to scripture. What I never could understand is why the importance to prove Jesus didn't drink alcohol?....except maybe to debunk Catholicism.
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