Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Mar 22, '05, 8:59 am
edwinG edwinG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 851
Religion: Christian
Default Mary

Hi ,
How do Roman Catholics understand these passages from scripture.
Luke11:27,28
"And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.'"
But He said, "More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."

Luke 8:21 "But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Walk in love,
edwinG
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Mar 22, '05, 9:10 am
Gerry Hunter Gerry Hunter is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,707
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi ,
How do Roman Catholics understand these passages from scripture.
Luke11:27,28
"And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.'"
But He said, "More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."

Luke 8:21 "But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Walk in love,
edwinG
Quite simply, that Mary herself exemplified those "who hear the word of God and keep it," and "those who hear the word of God and do it" beyond any other person in the created order. She is the leading exemplar, and thus receives the highest honour (note: not worship as it is given to God) of all the Saints. Jesus was not, in particular, putting his mother down in any way in these statements, just as he was showing her no disrespect when he referred to her a "woman" at Cana, even the the usage in translation tends to grate on modern ears.

Blessings,

Gerry
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Mar 22, '05, 9:12 am
yochumjy yochumjy is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 1,045
Religion: Catholic
Thumbs up Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Hunter
Quite simply, that Mary herself exemplified those "who hear the word of God and keep it," and "those who hear the word of God and do it" beyond any other person in the created order. She is the leading exemplar, and thus receives the highest honour (note: not worship as it is given to God) of all the Saints. Jesus was not, in particular, putting his mother down in any way in these statements, just as he was showing her no disrespect when he referred to her a "woman" at Cana, even the the usage in translation tends to grate on modern ears.
Gerry,

I have NO clue why I didn't put that together before. Is there a "slap yourself on the forehead" emoticon?

THANKS!

John
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Mar 22, '05, 9:19 am
edwinG edwinG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 851
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Hunter
Quite simply, that Mary herself exemplified those "who hear the word of God and keep it," and "those who hear the word of God and do it" beyond any other person in the created order. She is the leading exemplar, and thus receives the highest honour (note: not worship as it is given to God) of all the Saints. Jesus was not, in particular, putting his mother down in any way in these statements, just as he was showing her no disrespect when he referred to her a "woman" at Cana, even the the usage in translation tends to grate on modern ears.

Blessings,

Gerry
Hi Gerry,
To me scripture says only Job, Daniel and Noah were of that order. It does not mention Mary. Surely your scripture says the same about Job, Daniel and Noah. There must be some other reason for I fail to see how your explanation lines up with scripture.
Walk in love
edwinG
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Mar 22, '05, 11:43 am
MonicaC MonicaC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2005
Posts: 315
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Dear Edwin,

Do you believe that Our Lord came to earth to show us how to follow God's Commandments? if so It is easy to see how Jesus could never have spoken negativly against Mary. Jesus loved and honored his mother in every way and therefore who are we to ever challenge God on this. God honored her by chosing her among all women to become the first living tabernacle and so we should also honor her as such. No one is saying that we should worship her, because that would be wrong, but honor like her Son did here on earth.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Mar 22, '05, 11:51 am
yochumjy yochumjy is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 1,045
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
To me scripture says only Job, Daniel and Noah were of that order. It does not mention Mary. Surely your scripture says the same about Job, Daniel and Noah. There must be some other reason for I fail to see how your explanation lines up with scripture.
Where in scripture do you read that ONLY Job, Daniel and Noah were of that order. Elijah? He did go up into heaven directly right? There was another man in Genesis before Noah that went directly to heaven, what about him (sorry, forgot the name...)

Mary heard the word of God through and angel, and accepted God's will in a way no other person ever had. She accepted the living word of God, the Bread of Life, the High Priest into herself.

Many have accepted the spirit of God into their lives, no one other than Mary was chosen and accepted the very flesh and spirit of God into themselves.

John
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Mar 22, '05, 12:38 pm
Della Della is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 19,074
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi ,
How do Roman Catholics understand these passages from scripture.
Luke11:27,28
"And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.'"
But He said, "More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."
If you insert another perfectly good word for "blessed" here with "fortunate" you will see that the woman isn't praising Mary, she is praising Jesus by saying that the womb which bore him and the breasts which fed him, i. e., the woman who gave him birth and brought him up is "fortunate" or "blessed" to have had such a son. We Catholics think so too, don't you?

Quote:
Luke 8:21 "But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Walk in love,
edwinG
This was a teaching moment in which Jesus was trying to get across the idea that everyone who loves and serves God is of the family of God. He said nothing whatsoever about Mary's special status as the mother of the Son of God. That wasn't the subject he was addressing. It is you, dear friend, who is reading into the text what is not there.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Mar 22, '05, 12:51 pm
tuopaolo tuopaolo is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 1,154
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi ,
How do Roman Catholics understand these passages from scripture.
Luke11:27,28
"And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.'"
But He said, "More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."
In this scripture the woman is (primarily) praising not Mary, but Jesus.

It is common to express praise for someone indirectly like that. For example, today, you might tell someone: "Your husband is a very lucky and blessed man" meaning to say that the husband is very lucky and blessed to have such a wonderful wife. The praise is directed not to her husband, but rather to her. Likewise, here the praise is directed not to Mary, but to Jesus.

So Jesus is addressing this woman's praise of Jesus, not any praise she had for Mary. It may be that this woman was praising Jesus because he was viewed as a great or wise teacher. Jesus is explaining to the woman that it is not being a great teacher that is blessed, but rather that it is hearing the word of God and keeping it -- something that Jesus did and exemplified -- that is blessed.

In St Bonaventure's Marian psalter you see another example of the same kind of language: "Blessed is the womb that bore thee: and blessed are the breasts that nourished thee," where it is clear that it is not Mary's mother that is being (primarily) praised here, but rather Mary herself.

So the objection based on this scripture is premised on a misunderstanding of what the woman was doing and what Jesus was responding to.

Quote:
Luke 8:21 "But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Walk in love,
edwinG
I've been told that in this scripture Jesus was trying to emphasize that His kingdom was based on new spiritual relationships rather than on familial relationships that formed the basis of Israel. But I don't know if I've been told right.

Besides that, it may be that Jesus was trying to protect His mother. If He had proclaimed or advertised her as the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, one who would crush the head of the serpent, etc., then he may have caused her to suffer unnecessary danger or persecution. It's just like when he protected himself from unnecessary danger and persecution when He instructed his disciples to not tell anyone that he was the Christ. He needed to first complete His public ministry before traveling the Via Dolorosa. When His public ministry was completed in accordance with the Father's will, He did reveal Mary to us as our Mother, saying, "Behold, your mother."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Mar 22, '05, 1:08 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2004
Posts: 4,772
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi ,
How do Roman Catholics understand these passages from scripture.
Luke11:27,28
"And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.'"
But He said, "More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."
Interpretation: Although he acknowledges what the woman says as having an element of truth(possibly not - I'm not familiar with the "More than that" response during his lifetime) he clarifies a greater truth: even more blessed are the obedient faithful. Ironically this includes his mother in both respects whereas his statement seems like an attempt to contrast the two.
It doesn't seem like there is much ambiguity in the interpretation - Do you have another? What was the point of your question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Luke 8:21 "But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Walk in love,
edwinG
Same thing - the faithful obedient are the family of God. Doesn't seem ambiguous to me. If you think that this somehow detracts from Mary's unique role in his life, then you're simply trying to force something into the passage that I don't think is there.

love one another,

Phil
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Mar 22, '05, 1:43 pm
wcknight wcknight is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2005
Posts: 3,870
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Many protestant take this passage as a put down of Mary. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mary was honored above all humans. She was the perfect woman created by God specifically to bear His Son.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Jesus to put down Mary in any way. Such an interpretation would make Jesus into an ungrateful Son towards the woman who raised Him. Would it be logical or fitting for Jesus to put anyone above His mother ?

Jesus is merely adding that people who hear the word of God are also blessed, NOT that these folks are any better than His own mother. That would be insanity.

As the angel Gabriel says, Hail Full of Grace. Can anyone else claim that title ?

wc
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Mar 22, '05, 3:27 pm
jimmy jimmy is offline
Account Under Review
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2004
Posts: 9,742
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi ,
How do Roman Catholics understand these passages from scripture.
Luke11:27,28
"And it happened , as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You , and the breasts which nursed You.'"
But He said, "More that that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."

Luke 8:21 "But He answered and said to them " My mother and brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Walk in love,
edwinG
Mary is blessed because she did the will of God, not simply because she was the mother of God. If she did not do the will of God, chances are she would never be chosen to be the mother.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Mar 23, '05, 9:10 am
edwinG edwinG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 851
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by yochumjy
Where in scripture do you read that ONLY Job, Daniel and Noah were of that order. Elijah? He did go up into heaven directly right? There was another man in Genesis before Noah that went directly to heaven, what about him (sorry, forgot the name...)

Mary heard the word of God through and angel, and accepted God's will in a way no other person ever had. She accepted the living word of God, the Bread of Life, the High Priest into herself.

Many have accepted the spirit of God into their lives, no one other than Mary was chosen and accepted the very flesh and spirit of God into themselves.

John
Hi John,
Try Ezekeil 14:14. Maybe that other man is Enoch, but I am not in a position to judge between men and woman in the bible. I believe the scripture. I dont judge Enoch or Elijah or compare them against Job, Daniel or Noah.The bible states their righteousness. I am repeating what is in the bible.
You have accepted the Spirit of Christ into your heart , a circumcision by the Holy Spirit where Christ is born into you. That makes Him the Son of Man. Do you think the Spirit of Christ is less than His flesh was?
Walk in love
edwinG
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Mar 23, '05, 9:17 am
edwinG edwinG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 851
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Della
If you insert another perfectly good word for "blessed" here with "fortunate" you will see that the woman isn't praising Mary, she is praising Jesus by saying that the womb which bore him and the breasts which fed him, i. e., the woman who gave him birth and brought him up is "fortunate" or "blessed" to have had such a son. We Catholics think so too, don't you?
Hi Della,
Thanks for answering the question. So your answer is that blessed really should be translated as fortunate. Does that fit in with "But" which indicates how Jesus understood the lady who called out.



Quote:
This was a teaching moment in which Jesus was trying to get across the idea that everyone who loves and serves God is of the family of God. He said nothing whatsoever about Mary's special status as the mother of the Son of God. That wasn't the subject he was addressing. It is you, dear friend, who is reading into the text what is not there.
You have me smiling dear Della, as I am not reading into the text but asking you how you read the text?
walk in love
edwinG
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Mar 23, '05, 9:22 am
Della Della is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 19,074
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinG
Hi John,
Try Ezekeil 14:14. Maybe that other man is Enoch, but I am not in a position to judge between men and woman in the bible. I believe the scripture. I dont judge Enoch or Elijah or compare them against Job, Daniel or Noah.The bible states their righteousness. I am repeating what is in the bible.
You have accepted the Spirit of Christ into your heart , a circumcision by the Holy Spirit where Christ is born into you. That makes Him the Son of Man. Do you think the Spirit of Christ is less than His flesh was?
Walk in love
edwinG
The Bible also states Mary's righteousness:

Luke 1: 41 - 45:
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

Sounds like Mary was righteous to me, in the same way righteousness was ascribed to Abraham and Moses--because Mary had faith in God and was obedient to his will.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Mar 23, '05, 9:25 am
edwinG edwinG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 851
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuopaolo
In this scripture the woman is (primarily) praising not Mary, but Jesus.

It is common to express praise for someone indirectly like that. For example, today, you might tell someone: "Your husband is a very lucky and blessed man" meaning to say that the husband is very lucky and blessed to have such a wonderful wife. The praise is directed not to her husband, but rather to her. Likewise, here the praise is directed not to Mary, but to Jesus.

So Jesus is addressing this woman's praise of Jesus, not any praise she had for Mary. It may be that this woman was praising Jesus because he was viewed as a great or wise teacher. Jesus is explaining to the woman that it is not being a great teacher that is blessed, but rather that it is hearing the word of God and keeping it -- something that Jesus did and exemplified -- that is blessed.

In St Bonaventure's Marian psalter you see another example of the same kind of language: "Blessed is the womb that bore thee: and blessed are the breasts that nourished thee," where it is clear that it is not Mary's mother that is being (primarily) praised here, but rather Mary herself.

So the objection based on this scripture is premised on a misunderstanding of what the woman was doing and what Jesus was responding to.



I've been told that in this scripture Jesus was trying to emphasize that His kingdom was based on new spiritual relationships rather than on familial relationships that formed the basis of Israel. But I don't know if I've been told right.

Besides that, it may be that Jesus was trying to protect His mother. If He had proclaimed or advertised her as the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, one who would crush the head of the serpent, etc., then he may have caused her to suffer unnecessary danger or persecution. It's just like when he protected himself from unnecessary danger and persecution when He instructed his disciples to not tell anyone that he was the Christ. He needed to first complete His public ministry before traveling the Via Dolorosa. When His public ministry was completed in accordance with the Father's will, He did reveal Mary to us as our Mother, saying, "Behold, your mother."
Hi tuopaolo,
Thanks you for explaining how you understand this scripture. See above about my confusion with the word "but " which Jesus used.
walk in love
edwinG
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question about Mary Bob_K Back Fence 38 Aug 28, '04 8:21 pm
The assumption of Mary homer Non-Catholic Religions 362 Jul 29, '04 7:54 am




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6607CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6151Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: hazcompat
5167Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4629Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4291Poems and Reflections
Last by: Purgatory Pete
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3290For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2824Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: TheCrabNebula
2448SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:23 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.