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  #1  
Old Mar 25, '05, 12:49 pm
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Jimmy B Jimmy B is offline
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Default Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

JMJ

(1 of 5) Catholic vs. Protestant.

Can the answer be found in John 3:16?

Yes! It can be found in John 3:16, John 3:17 and John 3:18 through John 3:21.

and the answer supports Catholicism.

Quote:

John 3:16-21

16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

18
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

19
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.


John 3:16 is the verse that most people associated with non-Catholic Christians, especially “Born Again” Christians. John 3:16 is used by non-Catholic Christians to support their arguments, which differs from Catholicism, that is:
  • Once saved always saved.
  • Saved by grace/faith alone. Not by works.
  • Once you have been save, your name will be forever written in the “Book of Life”.
Continued on next post -
__________________
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James T. "Jimmy" Brousseau, LAPD Ret. (Class 1-87)


May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all - Go in Peace.

Last edited by Jimmy B; Mar 25, '05 at 1:02 pm.
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  #2  
Old Mar 25, '05, 12:52 pm
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Jimmy B Jimmy B is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

JMJ

(2 of 5)Catholic vs. Protestant. Can the answer be found in John 3:16? (Continued from last post)

Lets take a look at John 3:16 – 21.

Quote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.


Reading this, does it say that “everyone who believes in him shall not perish”?

No! It says “that everyone who believes in him might not perish”

This is a very important point to answer these two questions:


1. Is it true that once saved always saved?

2. Is it true, that you are saved by grace or faith alone and not judge by good works?

If it’s true that everyone who believes isforever “saved”, wouldn’t the words “shall not’ or “will not” parish, have been used instead of “might not”?

Continued on next post -
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May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all - Go in Peace.
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  #3  
Old Mar 25, '05, 12:53 pm
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

JMJ

(3 of 5) Catholic vs. Protestant. Can the answer be found in John 3:16?

(Continued from last post)


Might not, means maybe. Might not does not mean that your salvation is guaranteed, just by believing. Might not, means that Jesus suffered and died for us, and our sins so that we might be, or could be saved. Jesus died for our sins, He died 2000 years ago. We were all given free will, which means, that after “saying” we believe, after Jesus died for ours sins, that we can still fall into sin and lose our salvation.


We, all men, were not saved from the bondage of sin the moment we said “I believe”. This occurred and was completed the moment, 2000 years ago, when Jesus Christ sacrificed himself for us on the cross and died for our sins.

Quote:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. He gave is only son,


Christ crucified, 2000 years ago.


So that we might be saved. All of our sins were nailed to the cross. It was a new beginning. In John 19, verses 28 and 30 it reads everything was now finished and “he said, It is finished."


It was finished, complete, 2000 years ago; we were saved and freed from the bondage of sin.

Quote:

John
Chapter 19

28
After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled Jesus said, "I thirst."

30
When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, "It is finished." And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.


Continued on next post -
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  #4  
Old Mar 25, '05, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

JMJ

(4 of 5) Catholic vs. Protestant. Can the answer be found in John 3:16?

(Continued from last post)

Now lets take a look at John 3, verses 19-21.

Quote:



John 3:19-21

19
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.



Quote:
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God. And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil”.



During the time of Jesus, there were people who said that they believed. If they said that they believe, then they are forever saved, right? Wrong! Because, they didn’t live the truth, good works, obeying Gods laws, avoiding sin and doing good works, things pleasing to God. They preferred the darkness (sin).

Quote:

“And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil”


The verdict or conclusion was that even though the light (Jesus) came into the world, people still preferred darkness, they still sinned. We all sin, and will continue to sin, All of us! And when we do sin, we go away from the light (Jesus) and into the darkness (sin). It’s a constant battle, our entire life. When we do sin, after we accept Jesus Christ, it is necessary to asked for forgiveness, leave the darkness (sin) and return to the light (Jesus).


Continued on next post -
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  #5  
Old Mar 25, '05, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

JMJ

(5 of 5) Catholic vs. Protestant. Can the answer be found in John 3:16?

(Continued from last post)

The non-Catholic Christian argument that once save, we will do good works because we are save, wrongly assumes that we will sin no more and that it is not possible to lose our salvation.. We are all sinners and must reconcile with God often. Like I have already stated, it is a constant battle.

I think when anyone wrongly states that they know for a fact that they will go to heaven because they have been saved, or that their name has been written in the Book of Life, forever. They have assumed the role of God. They decided what is gong to happen to them. They can read God’s mind. Only God will decide who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, not us!

This sort of belief, that “I know” I’m going to heaven, because I’ve been saved, is not a very humble belief. This would be like going to court as a defendant in a criminal case and say “I know” I will be found not guilty. It is not in your hands, you don’t know, you can only hope. That’s what Jesus gave us, hope! Not a guarantee. We must always try with humility to avoid sin. We must always try to obey Gods laws. We must love and worship God with all of our heart, mind and soul. We will continue to sin and when we do we must reconcile with our Father and come back to the light.

End.

God have mercy on me, a sinner.
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  #6  
Old Mar 25, '05, 1:49 pm
challenger challenger is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

The emphasis on faith is a rebuke of Nicodemus. Read all of John 3- it's clear what the issue is, not some kind of "faith alone" theology.


P.S. I'm agreeing with you : )
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  #7  
Old Mar 26, '05, 5:36 am
Sirach14 Sirach14 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many *believed in his name*...but Jesus did not trust himself to them..." (John 2:23)
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  #8  
Old Mar 26, '05, 12:56 pm
Jim B Jim B is offline
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Thumbs up Do You Believe or Protest?

Dear Christian Friends,
I see you're having a spirited discussion about who is 'saved' or not.
Since this topic concerns the legitimacy of the Catholic Church, I find
it appropriate to share this with you.
Just some good news here for the 'good of the order.'

The joy found from a Jew discovering the Messiah is
ever new - no matter how recently it occured.

At the conclusion of WWII, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli,
converted to Catholicism. His story is wonderfully told in the book
he wrote, Before the Dawn.

When asked "Why didn't you choose one of the Protestant denominations, which are not so demanding?", Zolli replied,
"Because protesting is not attesting."

What an elegant testimony, a faith which professes what it
believes (attesting), rather than protesting against what it does
not believe (protestantism).
Something for our non-Catholic brothers and
sisters to consider.

God Love Ya!
Jim B
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  #9  
Old Mar 28, '05, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

Quote:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

1608 Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of the grace that God in his infinite mercy never refuses them.99 Without his help man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them "in the beginning."

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58

2712Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the child of God, of the forgiven sinner who agrees to welcome the love by which he is loved and who wants to respond to it by loving even more.8 But he knows that the love he is returning is poured out by the Spirit in his heart, for everything is grace from God. Contemplative prayer is the poor and humble surrender to the loving will of the Father in ever deeper union with his beloved Son.
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May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all - Go in Peace.
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  #10  
Old Mar 28, '05, 5:54 pm
unworthysinner unworthysinner is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

This is from the DRV of the Bible. A Catholic translation. Saint John would also write inspired by the Holy Spirit:

John 20

29Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.
30Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
31But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.
I John 5
9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God, which is greater, because he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth in the Son of God hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son.
11And this is the testimony that God hath given to us eternal life. And this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son hath not life.
13These things I write to you that you may know that you have eternal life: you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

The Word of God approved by the Catholic Church says that repenting of our sins and trusting Jesus Christ to save us gives us eternal life, that will never perish, that will never be taken away, and that we can know here and now that we have eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. Not by what works we can do, how in the world could we possibly merit eternal life? How in the world could Christ's sacrifice on the cross be added to by unrighteous sinful natured sinners as us? Repent and believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again the third day, is seated at the right hand of the Father and is coming again. Praise His Name.
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  #11  
Old Mar 28, '05, 6:08 pm
Inkman Inkman is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

Quote:
The Word of God approved by the Catholic Church says that repenting of our sins and trusting Jesus Christ to save us gives us eternal life, that will never perish, that will never be taken away,

Actually the word of God approved by the Catholic church does not say this, Unworthysinner's pastor sais this and Unworthysinner choses to believe him.

Quote:
that will never be taken away
Can't be taken away? Where does the bible say this?
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  #12  
Old Mar 28, '05, 8:18 pm
unworthysinner unworthysinner is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkman
Actually the word of God approved by the Catholic church does not say this, Unworthysinner's pastor sais this and Unworthysinner choses to believe him.

Can't be taken away? Where does the bible say this?
God gives us eternal life, only He could take it. As Romans 8(DRV) says...

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things? 33 Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?
36 (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) 37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The obvious answer to the rhetorical question of verse 35 is no one or thing, but if there is any doubt Paul states nothing can take away eternal life in verse 38-39. Paul is sure, why aren't you?
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  #13  
Old Mar 28, '05, 8:18 pm
BlestOne BlestOne is offline
 
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

hmmm....let me give you my answer to protestants that try to tell me that Catholics are wrong about this verse. Remember these folks are not taught to think things out for themselves, rather to regurgitate what they have been taught so you have to use their thinking to show them.
In this verse indeed it does "sound" to some as if it is by faith alone that we are saved. But, if we are truly "saved" we will want to live a Christ like life. Christ performed works to show us how to live. He never quit performing "works" Indeed his crucifiction was a work was it not? Did he not save us from our sins by dying for us? So it can be said that unto his death he was showing us the way that we might have salvation. Therefore I say that if we are truly saved, we will perform works of goodness, mercy and selflessnes to imitate the life that Christ taught us to lead. If at some point you do not feel God's mercy and grace you will not act as Christ did, helping even our most pitiful brethern. So if this were to happen aren't you turning your back on others? Aren't you then turning your back on Christ? Because Jesus said that when you do for the least of my brethern so you do unto me. Faith without works is dead...it is no different than saying that you believe but act as if you didn't. Christ wouldn't and didn't do that and neither should you.
I have several Protestant friends that have tried to argue that with me. In fact one that had plans to be a missionary, i.e. very well versed in the bible, was so stunned that he could not argue with me. I don't try to spout Bible verses because against some I would be way out of my league. OK against most I would be way out of my league. I truly believe that you have to live the Word not just read it.
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  #14  
Old Mar 28, '05, 8:42 pm
Salmon Salmon is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

unworthysinner:
Quote:
Paul is sure, why aren't you?
It's too bad you weren't there to provide that assurance to Paul:

1 Cor 4:3-5
Quote:
3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness
and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
because you might have saved some from fear and trembling:
2Philippians 2:12
Quote:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
when Paul led some into thinking that their salvation was not assured:
Heb 10:26-27
Quote:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
obviously due to a bogus idea about:
Matt 24:13
Quote:
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
You are definitely more confident regarding your salvation than Paul was about his, and for this I congratulate you. He worked at it all the time.
I wonder what he was "shooting for"?
1 Cor 9:27
Quote:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should
be a castaway.
It seems he was so silly in his lack of confidence compared to yours.

unworthysinner:
Quote:
The obvious answer to the rhetorical question of verse 35 is no one or thing, but if there is
any doubt Paul states nothing can take away eternal life in verse 38-39.
See Revelation 22:19 for a contrary perspective.

Paul seems hungup on the idea that he might disqualify himself from the offer of salvation that he has accepted:
1 Cor 10:12-13
Quote:
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;
but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
He even seems to teach that those who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit can be lost, like it's not permanent or something:
Heb 6:4-6
Quote:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Really, unworthysinner, it would have been a blessing to Paul if you had been there to share your perspective.

Peace in Christ.........Salmon

p.s. a few more verses that might draw your attention:
cf: (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46)
Rom. 11:17-24
"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness;
otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."
Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others
I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).

Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13).
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  #15  
Old Mar 28, '05, 8:47 pm
Salmon Salmon is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

unworthysinner, would you like to take a quiz published by Gary Hoge?

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24

"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.

"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."

Question:

If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32
"When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

Question: Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

Extra credit: According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: "To prevent us from being ___________ with the world")

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we disown him, he will also disown us."

Question: If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Question: If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6 "[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil."

Question: Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them."

Bonus Essay Question: If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, "It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness"?

Galatians 5:19-20 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Question: If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

Romans 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

Question: If a Christian does not continue in God's kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2 "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain."

Question: If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience."

Question: If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God's rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
The once saved,always saved,quiz...from Gary Hoge's A Protestant's Guide to the Catholic Church.

Peace in Christ.....................Salmon
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