Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jul 31, '10, 6:59 pm
Holly3278's Avatar
Holly3278 Holly3278 is offline
Forum Elder
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 21, 2005
Posts: 21,607
Religion: Roman Catholic
Send a message via AIM to Holly3278 Send a message via MSN to Holly3278 Send a message via Yahoo to Holly3278
Question No Salvation Outside The Church?

Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?
  #2  
Old Jul 31, '10, 7:17 pm
davidv davidv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2004
Posts: 8,262
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?
All who enter heaven enter through Jesus. The Church is the body of Christ, so all enter through the Church. Sometimes in mysterious ways when they are not formal members.

It is not our place to speculate on the eternal fate of another.
__________________
David
  #3  
Old Jul 31, '10, 7:54 pm
Bookcat Bookcat is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: January 14, 2009
Posts: 25,090
Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#I
__________________
VIVAS IN DEO
IHCOY XPICTOY
  #4  
Old Jul 31, '10, 8:39 pm
PeterMuz PeterMuz is offline
Junior Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: June 9, 2009
Posts: 416
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?
No Salvation outside of the Church is wrong. See http://www.catholic.com/library/Salv...the_Church.asp
The paragraph 819 in the Catechism says it pretty well. One thing to remember is that if there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church then that would mean no one that lived before the Church was instituted could go to Heaven.
__________________
"The Cross is the way to Paradise, but only when it is borne willingly".
St. Paul of the Cross
  #5  
Old Jul 31, '10, 8:45 pm
DavidKays DavidKays is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 8, 2010
Posts: 487
Religion: Greek Orthodox
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?
It is true that there is no salvation outside the Church but that does not mean that you have to be in the Church to receive it. The Church is necessary for salvation for those in it and for those outside it. There is an ernormous amount of Graces that the Church has at her disposal and also the fact that these Graces are flowing out from the Eucharist. The Eucharistic Graces are overflowing so that those outside the Church may benefit from them. God supplies these Graces to whom it is necessary. The Church brings them in and God will dispose them to those who need it the most even those outside the Church. So the Church saves them even if they do not belong to her. Yet the person who receives these Graces must still acknowledge them. There is no guarentee that these people will be saved but they will have the Graces given to them so that they can decide still for God and Salvation. It is like this. When after the 5 loaves and 2 fishes were distrubeted to those in attendance the Lord asked to pick up the remaining left. 12 basketfuls were left. These represent Graces for the world. Even though God satified those in attendance He wishes those not in attendance also to be fed. These are represented in the 12 baskets at the end. So also when God feeds us in Holy Communion He always reserves an amount of Graces for those outside the Church and deposits this in their name. As long as there are people receiving Him so they permit God to put a reservoir of Graces available for those who did not come. No one is excluded! You are helping God to help those outside the Church when you come to receive Him. God Bless!
  #6  
Old Aug 1, '10, 4:12 am
Harry1941 Harry1941 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2010
Posts: 73
Religion: New Church (Swedenborg)
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

There is salvation outside the Church, even if a Christian use to a member of the Catholic Church. So long as the Christian believes and obeys the Ten Commandments of God, and does so for God they saved.

Harry
Love and charity to all.
  #7  
Old Aug 1, '10, 7:48 am
Deconi's Avatar
Deconi Deconi is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Posts: 1,238
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMuz View Post
No Salvation outside of the Church is wrong. See http://www.catholic.com/library/Salv...the_Church.asp
The paragraph 819 in the Catechism says it pretty well. One thing to remember is that if there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church then that would mean no one that lived before the Church was instituted could go to Heaven.
I think your 'assertion' is limited, Pete.

There actually is No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church! The phrase in it's simple statement is the problem for the illumination of it is almost 'limitless.'

Briefly, The Catholic Church is the Mystical body of Christ. Therefore, She is, as He is; that is, from the beginning! He 'saved' all before His arrival with what He did when He got here. Then He manifested and instituted a physical presence in this temporal scope for all to see, The Catholic Church.

Therefore, at every time from beginning to His return, no one gets to Heaven outside His work.

The Church is universal in scope and origin.

__________________
All matter have mass!?!

The universe is Catholic!?!

  #8  
Old Aug 1, '10, 3:09 pm
jericho777's Avatar
jericho777 jericho777 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Posts: 1,135
Religion: Saved by Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Actually the bible teaches salvation is only found in the person of Jesus the Christ. Acts 4:10,12 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead... 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved."
__________________
Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
  #9  
Old Aug 1, '10, 3:39 pm
Scoobyshme's Avatar
Scoobyshme Scoobyshme is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2,690
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMuz View Post
No Salvation outside of the Church is wrong. See http://www.catholic.com/library/Salv...the_Church.asp
The paragraph 819 in the Catechism says it pretty well. One thing to remember is that if there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church then that would mean no one that lived before the Church was instituted could go to Heaven.
Peter, you misunderstand the nature of the Church. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Christ is eternal (always was, is, and always will be), therefore the Church is eternal (always was, is, and always will be). The Church's earthly ministry began about 2000 years ago, but it has always existed.

IF anyone gets to heaven, then they are members of this Church, and, therefore, Catholic. (Regardless of whether they were an explicit member of the Church during their lifetime or not.) They become part of the Church Triumphant (as opposed to the Church Suffering, i.e., those in Purgatory, and the Church Militant (us!)).

Sometimes we are so attentive to the "sensitivities" of others that we end up saying nothing and missing the entire point. I've seen this problem for many years now from most of the pulpits of the Masses I've attended in the U.S. Not all, but most. That's why we never hear anything about hell, artificial birth control and abortion being sinful, etc. "Father" doesn't want to "offend" anyone's "sensibilities." Therefore, we have about 75% of Catholics in America believing it's okay to miss Mass on Sunday, practice artificial birth control, support politicians who support "legalized" abortion, etc. It's a mess.
__________________
Scooby
  #10  
Old Aug 1, '10, 3:43 pm
Scoobyshme's Avatar
Scoobyshme Scoobyshme is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2,690
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
Actually the bible teaches salvation is only found in the person of Jesus the Christ. Acts 4:10,12 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead... 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved."
AND, the Bible says that Jesus saves THROUGH His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church. He established it for a reason. To ignore it or try to belittle it in some way is to ignore Him and belittle Him. When St. Paul was persecuting Christians, what did Jesus ask him? "Paul, why are you persecuting ME?" Notice He didn't ask Paul, "Why are you persecuting My Church?"

Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Just curious.
__________________
Scooby
  #11  
Old Aug 1, '10, 4:31 pm
jericho777's Avatar
jericho777 jericho777 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Posts: 1,135
Religion: Saved by Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobyshme View Post
AND, the Bible says that Jesus saves THROUGH His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church. He established it for a reason. To ignore it or try to belittle it in some way is to ignore Him and belittle Him. When St. Paul was persecuting Christians, what did Jesus ask him? "Paul, why are you persecuting ME?" Notice He didn't ask Paul, "Why are you persecuting My Church?"

Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Just curious.
Could you please give me the chapter and verse that says salvation is through His body the church? Believers make up the body, the church. The church organization dosen't make the body.
__________________
Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
  #12  
Old Aug 1, '10, 4:52 pm
jericho777's Avatar
jericho777 jericho777 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Posts: 1,135
Religion: Saved by Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobyshme View Post
AND, the Bible says that Jesus saves THROUGH His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church. He established it for a reason. To ignore it or try to belittle it in some way is to ignore Him and belittle Him. When St. Paul was persecuting Christians, what did Jesus ask him? "Paul, why are you persecuting ME?" Notice He didn't ask Paul, "Why are you persecuting My Church?"

Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Just curious.
PS also Paul was persecuting individual believers (men and women) which make up the body not an organization. Acts 9:1
__________________
Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
  #13  
Old Aug 1, '10, 4:59 pm
DexUK's Avatar
DexUK DexUK is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2010
Posts: 2,178
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

As far as I understand it, the only guaranteed way to salvation is through the Church.

But that isn't to say that salvation doesn't exist outside the Church, it's just that there is no guarantee that it does.

For non-Christians, there's what's called the 'baptism of desire' - that is to say the movement of the heart towards God even if the intellect doesn't recognise it as such. A person without belief may live a fine and upright life. Yes, they may commit what we would consider sins from time to time, but their knowledge isn't enough that they would recognise them as such, so their capacity to commit mortal sins is reduced to those that are self-evident or deducible by human reason alone (i.e. murder, etc). The judgement for their sins remains for God to determine at their death. Only God knows if there is any sorrow in their hearts for the things they've done wrong. Only God knows whether they were sufficiently culpable and in possession of enough knowledge about the outcome of their actions to make them responsible enough to answer for them. We can only hope that their consciences moved them to remorse for their wrong-doings and that the enormous mercy of God will be shown to them.

So we hold that the Church teaches enough for us to know what to do to attain eternal life and that we can rely on these teachings and trust that by following them we're doing enough. We can hope that others can also do enough and be forgiven enough too, but we can't know for sure.
  #14  
Old Aug 2, '10, 3:54 am
Scoobyshme's Avatar
Scoobyshme Scoobyshme is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2,690
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
Could you please give me the chapter and verse that says salvation is through His body the church? Believers make up the body, the church. The church organization dosen't make the body.
As soon as you can show me in the Bible, where the Bible says that everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. (See John 21:25 that disproves that.)

Yet, Jesus commanded His Apostles (and their successors, by extension) to go out and teach everything that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20).

So, where's the difference? In Oral Tradition (teaching), a.k.a., Holy Tradition. That's the oral teachings of Jesus that were taught from generation to generation in the Church that didn't get written down.

Jesus never wrote a book. He established a Church. THIS Church, the Catholic Church, wrote some, but not all, of what Jesus taught, as a tool, not as a basis for a religion or another separate denomination.

This Bible, when properly used, has an authentic interpreter here on earth, and that's the Church. See 1 Tim 3:15 that says the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." The ONLY Christian Church in existence for the first 1000 years after Jesus ascended to heaven was the Catholic Church. NO OTHER existed. Then, in 1054, the Orthodox split off. Only in 1517 did Protestantism begin, and since then has splintered into literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally disagreeing denominations (and counting).

So, rather than base your faith on your own personal interpretation of the Bible (see what Peter has to say about that in 2 Peter 1:20), you should base it on what the Church founded by Jesus has to say.
__________________
Scooby
  #15  
Old Aug 2, '10, 5:29 am
Scoobyshme's Avatar
Scoobyshme Scoobyshme is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2,690
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: No Salvation Outside The Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
PS also Paul was persecuting individual believers (men and women) which make up the body not an organization. Acts 9:1
The Church is not a mere "organization." The Church is made up of the believers, some of whom have been called into the ministerial priesthood. The Church, unlike Protestantism, is not a man-made entity. It is a Divine entity, established on earth by Jesus Christ, Son of God. Not by mere men like Martin Luther (Lutherans), John Calvin (Calvinists), John Smythe (Baptists), John and Charles Wesley (Methodists), etc.
__________________
Scooby
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6460CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: oldgraymare2
5958Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
5070Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4615Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4218Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
4052OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Popeye14
3286For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3259Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
2807Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: RomanoAmerio
2443SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:42 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.