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  #16  
Old Sep 2, '10, 12:03 am
Rolltide's Avatar
Rolltide Rolltide is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

Here's one of the relevant quotes surrounding the controversy:

Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, O.P., a famous 16th century Dominican theologian, summed up
the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on this topic very well. Here is how he
put it:

“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the
Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism
or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or
Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but
not for the sin of unbelief.
As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them
lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it
is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the
name of Christ.”
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  #17  
Old Sep 2, '10, 6:27 am
AnneElliot AnneElliot is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolltide View Post
I should mention that Sublimus Dei was so important,
Yet it's not in the Denzinger?

Quote:
“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the
Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism
or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or
Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but
not for the sin of unbelief. As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them
lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it
is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the
name of Christ
.”
I agree with this.
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  #18  
Old Sep 2, '10, 12:02 pm
bona fides bona fides is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolltide View Post
Here's one of the relevant quotes surrounding the controversy:

Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, O.P., a famous 16th century Dominican theologian, summed up
the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on this topic very well. Here is how he
put it:

“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the
Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism
or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or
Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but
not for the sin of unbelief.
As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them
lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it
is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the
name of Christ.”
This brings forward an important observation I have made & want to share. It seems that some Catholics are afraid to tell their co-workers and non-Catholic friends about the universal truths held by the Catholic Church for fear of increasing their culpability by exposing them to too much knowledge and information. They are afraid that this information would remove an excuse of moral conscience and make them more culpable to spiritual penalty should they fail to make their case and be rejected.

The problem with this line of reasoning is two fold: 1) We are explicitly commanded to preach the good news to all peoples and nations and 2) the natural moral conscience convicts each person with an appetite for knowledge and truth. Invincible Ignorance does not relieve any soul of the necessity to follow its conscience - no matter how poorly formed. There is with all rational and non-defective minds an incumbent gravity compelled by the soul to strive towards reasonable diligence in seeking divine truth. God gives each soul the moral principals and no one is ever relived from obedience from these - not ever.

Clearly Jesus would never have even given the Great Commission to evangelize the world if that action could result in sending people to hell. No - its impossible for God to do anything that would be intrinsically evil. The default condition of man is clearly a condition of grave depravity that requires being remedied by teaching and by example and access to sacramental grace. Those for lack of mental facilities (reasoning power) or who are inaccessible to knowledge remain in their condition of depravity and if not listening to their natural moral conscience are in an elevated risk. The risk of being condemned to hell is NOT principally for rejecting the good news of the Catholic Church (although it is grave in how it sets one up for failure) but rather for succumbing to the legion of temptations and other sinful things they already commit and will continue to commit against natural moral conscience (e.g. murder, stealing, rape, self-degrading behaviors etc.). God is giving humanity the gift of His Church - if somone rejects the gift of the Catholic Church then they are on electing to take on all the risks themselves and lacking the support of the Catholic Community and sacraments will generally fall into grave sin over time. All it takes is a single unforgiven grave sin to land in hell. In this modern secular-hedonistic world - few individuals escape the many temptations that are in their face daily (various, lusts,impurities, disgracing the dignity of partners through illicit sex etc).

The truth is, the default condition of life is that we MUST FIGHT AND STRUGGLE against sinful inclinations. Satan wants every single soul he can get his hands on from the moment of birth. It's NOT easy to get to heaven on a lone-ranger do-it-yourself "spiritual but not religious" strategy. Christ only made it possible at all for anyone to overcome their defective human nature - but His powers are applied through His Church one way or another. Being brought into the true Catholic faith and given the sacramental powers and grace one gains a juggernaut of spiritual helps. A Catholic has a much much easier opportunity to attain salvation since every time he walks into church and participates in the sacraments or draws on his own inner sanctification (the HS) through prayer he is gaining grace (in accord to his own disposition). But there are not even any guarantees for Catholics if they don't stay in grace - and that takes daily diligence and devotion to the Catholic Disciplines and habitual exercise of the sacraments.

Non-Catholics, esp. Protestants, who reject Catholicism and who are truly "invincibly ignorant" (personally I think very few fall into this category) are relieved of the necessity of being formal Catholics. But this is just a mitigation of the sin of disobedience. It does not mitigate the many other sins these are likely to fall into. These remain at HIGH RISK of sinning gravely in some other way (e.g. fornication, murder, slander, teaching false doctrines and causing others to fall away, aiding/abetting abortion, divorce/remarriage, etc.). And without the sacraments they have very little opportunity and chance to be forgiven of post-baptismal sins (perfect contrition/repentance is very hard to form and requires saintly graces). Protestants in particular are taking on a huge risk since they know the moral law (in general) and are held to a higher standard than just an average non-Christian.


BF
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  #19  
Old Sep 3, '10, 12:35 am
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

I mentioned this before, but it seems no one has referred to it. What do you think the Catechism mean in para 846ff.? Doesn't this apply to this thread?
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  #20  
Old Sep 12, '10, 9:23 am
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SacredHeart1987 SacredHeart1987 is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

A person who knowingly and deliberatley rejects the claims of the Catholic Church cannot be saved.
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  #21  
Old Sep 12, '10, 8:10 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bingbang View Post
It certainly USED to mean this. Instead of the church technically changing the teaching of "no salvation outside the Church," they just changed what it means.
Actually, the Catholic Church has always taught that, in limited circumstances, people outside the visible Church can be saved by virtue of being invisibly joined to her. Here are the two key considerations:

1. Protestant Baptisms. Protestant baptisms have always been viewed as uncertain--i.e., potentially salvific. Vatican II did not change this view, although it was clarified. See, for example, this diocesan regulation from 1851:

Quote:
When we consider the all-saving efficacy of the Sacrament of Baptism, we tremble at the the thought that there are so many of those around us who have not received it, and we feel that the Church is never more merciful and considerate than in her anxiety to allow the conditional baptism of Protestants who ask to become her children. She has even expressed her anxiety in the form of a positive command, and has ordered us to administer conditional baptism, unless we have undoubted proofs of the former baptism of the postulant having been validly administered.
2. Invincible Ignorance. The Church has always taught, before and after Vatican II, that those who aren't aware that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation through no fault of their own are not denied salvation for that reason. Here's how a commentator from 1896 put it:
Quote:
It is possible to belong to the soul of the church without belonging to its body.
Given that Unam Sanctam (1302 AD) stated "it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” and yet the salvation of those with valid Protestant baptisms and those invincibly ignorant has always been recognized, it went without saying that such people were subject to the Roman Pontiff. Vatican II, in Lumen Gentium, just spelled it out in clearer detail.

Remember: The Catholic Church, by definition, does not (and cannot) change doctrine.

Last edited by Cat Herder; Sep 12, '10 at 8:12 pm. Reason: Clarification
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  #22  
Old Sep 12, '10, 9:33 pm
Edwin78 Edwin78 is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

Hi AnneElliot
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnneElliot View Post
Can you show me where it says this? I can't find it:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul03/p3subli.htm
We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it.
The Native Americans, and in extension all other pagans who have never heard the Gospel, are already the Lord's sheep; they just needed to be brought into the fold; that is, be brought formally into the Catholic faith.
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  #23  
Old Sep 12, '10, 10:13 pm
Edwin78 Edwin78 is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

"For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."

2 Corinthians 5:14-15


"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Unam Sanctam, Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302

Suppose a Conqueror lands on a previously unexplored continent, and annexes the whole of it under the banner of His King. Settlers of the Kingdom arrive. The Conqueror then leaves a Governor to take care of the settlers. However, there are natives in that continent. Since these natives lived in the continent before the Conqueror and the settlers arrived, logically these natives automatically become citizens of the kingdom, and thus under the jurisdiction of the Governor.

This is the case also with the Catholic Church. Since Jesus Christ "died for all" humans, all humans, even though they do not know it, can be bestowed with saving grace through means outside the Catholic Church. This was affirmed by the encyclical Sublimus Dei ("We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge") which echoes the words of Jesus Christ Himself: ""I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice." (John 10:16a)

However, there is a caveat here. Since all humans can be bestowed with saving grace outside the usual means of the Catholic Church and thus become the Lord's sheep, all of the human race must necessarily be under the authority of the Pope.

Why? In continuing the above passage, Jesus Christ also said, "There will be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16b), the One Shepherd being Jesus Christ. And yet it was only to St. Peter whom Jesus said: "Feed my lambs...Tend my sheep...Feed my sheep." (John 21:15, 16, 17). Therefore, Jesus left to St. Peter's, and his successors', care all of His sheep, in the fold (formally Catholic) or not.

In other words, each and every one human creature in the whole world is a Catholic in one sense or another.

And oh yes, another caveat: each and every Person in heaven is a Catholic

God bless us all.

Last edited by Edwin78; Sep 12, '10 at 10:30 pm.
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  #24  
Old Sep 12, '10, 10:24 pm
Edwin78 Edwin78 is offline
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Default Re: Athanasian Creed - No salvation outside the church!

Hi diggerdomer
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggerdomer View Post
I mentioned this before, but it seems no one has referred to it. What do you think the Catechism mean in para 846ff.? Doesn't this apply to this thread?
Quote:
CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
CCC 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
Definitely
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