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  #1  
Old Apr 25, '05, 4:27 pm
Fortiterinre Fortiterinre is offline
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Exclamation "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn't have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!
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  #2  
Old Apr 25, '05, 4:55 pm
JCPhoenix JCPhoenix is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

That woman and the entire pew was out of line. Let it go.

They judged you adn yoru actions without even considering that you have good reason for how you behave and carry yourself at Mass. And to refuse the "sign of peace"..well, guess they went to Communion with unforgiveness on their souls. Pray for them and let God judge their hearts.

I've had a child insist on holding my hand, and I would not refuse a child (unless I had a cold and did not want to shake/grasp anyone's hand for that reason.)

Let it go...you did nothing wrong and if people don't want to forgive you...well, that's between them and God.
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  #3  
Old Apr 25, '05, 5:09 pm
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juno24 juno24 is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortiterinre
I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn't have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!
Wow! THE SAME thing happened to me several months ago. The woman did not jab me in the ribs, but she did tap me on the arm while I was in the same posture as you described. After I went back to praying rather than take her hand, I made sure she was the first one I turned to for the sign of peace. She turned up her nose ot me, and turned her back to me. Now the main difference between your incident and mine is that the people around me were shocked at HER actions and were quick to offer me their hands.
I have since thought about my incident, and I believe I inadvertently insulted her and made her feel unwelcome. She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer. I will not initiate hand-holding, but I will try not to appear rude if someone else wants to.
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  #4  
Old Apr 25, '05, 5:23 pm
Pentecost2005 Pentecost2005 is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by juno24
She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer.
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  #5  
Old Apr 25, '05, 6:24 pm
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by juno24
I have since thought about my incident, and I believe I inadvertently insulted her and made her feel unwelcome. She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer. I will not initiate hand-holding, but I will try not to appear rude if someone else wants to.
Please Holy Father Benedict XVI, be our guide and tell the American Bishops to give us guidance in this practice. I pray.
And while I'm asking, please guide the rude, misguided or uninformed who are focusing on holding hands with other humans or looking up to heaven with their hands flipped up when they should be focusing on Our Lord on the Altar.
(and while I'm asking could we sprinkle in some Latin to our liturgy as well?)

I know it's a lot to ask but if our Wonderful Pastor can lead the sheep in our parish to know what is right, then I have all confidence that you, Holy Father could do the same.

(anyone think he reads this forum?)
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  #6  
Old Apr 25, '05, 8:37 pm
Liberian Liberian is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by juno24
Wow! THE SAME thing happened to me several months ago. The woman did not jab me in the ribs, but she did tap me on the arm while I was in the same posture as you described.

<snip>

I have since thought about my incident, and I believe I inadvertently insulted her and made her feel unwelcome. She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer. I will not initiate hand-holding, but I will try not to appear rude if someone else wants to.
I do the same thing--clasp my hands during the Our Father--and have been tapped on the elbow a few times. What I do when this happens is smile at the person, shake my head slightly, and say "No, thank you." It seems not to give offense--at least not yet.

- Liberian
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  #7  
Old Apr 25, '05, 8:58 pm
Allen537 Allen537 is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

I'm not sure what the problem is with holding hands during the Our Father. I have known people who don't hold hands for whatever reasons, and thats fine. But it seems that it is common culture in the US for the faithful to hold hands during the prayer. I personally don't have a preference, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?
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  #8  
Old Apr 26, '05, 5:29 am
Sean O L Sean O L is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Hi Fortiterinre.

I seem to have received a different message from you that the posters do not appear to have received.

Am I correct in believing that it was YOU who refused (or was reluctant) to give/receive the "sign of peace"?

If so, then there is an entirely different response to the question. If not, then, as the others say: let it pass over you.
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  #9  
Old Apr 26, '05, 5:35 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Actually, Sean, it was during the "Our Father", NOT the "sign of peace", that Fort was accosted, and after the Our Father and BEFORE the Sign of Peace Fort was told by the woman not to DARE offer a sign of peace.

Fort was completely innocent of offense in this.

So you're right with your second response, Fort shouldn't worry and it was the woman who needs to "rethink" her words and actions.
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  #10  
Old Apr 26, '05, 5:42 am
dumspirospero dumspirospero is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

The real harm is that it is not proper and is not called for in the GIRM...therefore it shouldn't take place....also, that is the kind of stuff you see in a protestant church...if we are going to turn the Mass into a protestant style worship service, then I don't see why I had to leave the Baptists to spend a year in RCIA, so I could become Catholic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen537
, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?
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  #11  
Old Apr 26, '05, 6:32 am
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen537
I'm not sure what the problem is with holding hands during the Our Father. I have known people who don't hold hands for whatever reasons, and thats fine. But it seems that it is common culture in the US for the faithful to hold hands during the prayer. I personally don't have a preference, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?
Two problems with this...(excluding that it's not in the GIRM)
First, it makes the prayer lateral instead of to heaven. Jesus is right there on the Altar, by holding hands your focus is with the community.

Second, in the American culture, holding hands is personal. This is the only situation were we are expected to hold hands with a stranger. We shake hands when meeting a stranger, not hold them. That is taken care of with the handshake of peace.
I might be wrong, but I can't think of another situation where I am expected to hold hands with strangers.
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  #12  
Old Apr 26, '05, 7:03 am
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Tietjen Tietjen is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortiterinre
I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn't have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!
Your peg wasn't lowered in my (for what it's worth) estimation. I have never had this happen to me and I hope that it never does. However, should it happen, I hope that I will be as charitable as you were. I tend to see myself becoming greatly irritated at being elbowed in my ribs while in prayer. It angers me just hearing about this happening to someone else.

As a side note... if this sort of thing is common, shouldn't letters be sent to the Priest, Bishop and USCCB asking them to please intercede on behalf on the laity who are being assaulted? Clarification is obviously needed here else, someone may get hurt.
God bless.
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Old Apr 26, '05, 7:32 am
Allen537 Allen537 is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumspirospero
that is the kind of stuff you see in a protestant church...if we are going to turn the Mass into a protestant style worship service, then I don't see why I had to leave the Baptists to spend a year in RCIA, so I could become Catholic...
I don't think that just because we hold hands during the Our Father makes us more like the protestants. If that is your reasoning then we need to go ahead and just throw out everything we got from the Second Vatican Council, we need to stop speaaking in the Vernacular and go back to Latin, throw the lower altar in the garbage and go back to the high alter, turn the preist back around the way he should be becuase we are becoming too much like the protestants. I believe that the Catholic Church is perfect in everything she does, that is the way Christ made it. And I think that just because we may have some physical similarities with the protestants does not make us protestants. What is more important is what we believe, not how we believe it.
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  #14  
Old Apr 26, '05, 7:45 am
PJR PJR is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

I agree. Everything protestants do is not automatically wrong. And keep in mind, many practices that have been held in common for centuries have been thrown out in many FEC's because it "appears too Catholic". I think we should watch our prejudice.

If hand holding is incorrect. By all means we should not do it. But citing that protestants do it does not make it incorrect.

I think it became popular because it was an attempt to build community. I don't think anyone who wishes to hold your hand in Mass means to be offensive to you, and I don't think it was intended to take away from Christ on the altar.

If someone was put out and rude over being denied, and then refused the sign of peace, they were very wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen537
I don't think that just because we hold hands during the Our Father makes us more like the protestants. If that is your reasoning then we need to go ahead and just throw out everything we got from the Second Vatican Council, we need to stop speaaking in the Vernacular and go back to Latin, throw the lower altar in the garbage and go back to the high alter, turn the preist back around the way he should be becuase we are becoming too much like the protestants. I believe that the Catholic Church is perfect in everything she does, that is the way Christ made it. And I think that just because we may have some physical similarities with the protestants does not make us protestants. What is more important is what we believe, not how we believe it.
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Old Apr 26, '05, 8:10 am
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: "Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJR
I think it became popular because it was an attempt to build community. I don't think it was intended to take away from Christ on the altar.

.
Thank you to Devoted for sending me this....


May 23, 2004, 04:50 PM
Karl Keating
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Re: Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer
In America, we shake hands with one another at the sign of peace. In Japan parishioners bow to one another. In other countries there may be other conventions.

At the sign of peace we're saying "I'm at peace with you" or "I feel reconciled to you." We convey that through words ("The peace of Christ be with you") and through an action that is friendly but not intimate or intrusive (since most of those around us likely will be strangers).

This act of demonstrating reconciliation is undermined by holding hands at the Our Father. That prayer comes immediately before the sign of peace. In those parishes where people hold hands during that prayer, they are engaging in an action that is much more intimate than a handshake.

If we hold hands during the Our Father, it undercuts the significance of the following act, since holding hands trumps shaking hands. The sign of peace withers. A prescribed part of the liturgy (the sign of peace) loses much of its significance (much of its "sign value") when parishioners hold hands at the Our Father.

(It's good to say "I love you" to your spouse, but if you say that to everyone you meet on the street, your spouse will feel your words have been devalued.)

Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon ).

We do not hold hands with strangers to whom we are introduced. We shake hands instead. Holding hands in such a situation would be perceived as too intimate. And in some cases, holding hands even suggests something unsavory, as when we see two men holding hands as they walk down the sidewalk.

Can anyone think of any situation, other than at the Our Father during Mass, in which people commonly hold hands with strangers? I can't, and I think there is a reason: Hand holding is a sign of a certain intimacy. It's not something we take lightly.

To hold hands with strangers at Mass strikes me as artificial, and it has become a detriment to a proper appreciation of the liturgy. Yes, it is easy enough to avoid, but I think it remains a problem. It is one kind of problem for those who don't wish to hold hands, and it is another kind of problem (the problem of not understanding the role of signs in the Mass) for those who like the practice.
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