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  #1  
Old Jul 12, '13, 2:52 pm
Therese Martin's Avatar
Therese Martin Therese Martin is offline
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Default Meet the Mad-Trads

Meet the Mad-Trads

By Patrick Coffin

On the Friday, May 31 edition of Catholic Answers Live, guest Tim Staples and I tackled the phenomenon of radical Traditionalism. The concept is fairly straightforward, typified by groups like the Society of St. Pius X (and the two splinter groups who had no choice but to flee the SSPX's creeping liberalism), the sedevacantists (those who believe that the last legitimate pontiff was Pius XII), and others on the ecclesial far Right who have broken communion with the Roman Pontiff for their own sundry reasons.

Put another way, Extremely High Church Protestantism.

Tim took special pains throughout the broadcast to distinguish this phenomenon from the kind of "Traditional Catholics" who exhibit often heroic public witness to the Faith: that merry band of Latin-Mass-going, chapel veil-donning, homeschooling, nightly rosary-praying, great books-loving Catholics. In the courage of their faith and willingness to share it, these salt-of-the-earth Catholics deserve emulation.

Take for example their invariably bold public pro-life commitment. Drive past any abortion facility in America or Canada and among the prayer warriors on the sidewalk you're bound to find at least one such Catholic. They love the pope, they love the beautiful Extraordinary Form (the Traditional Latin Mass), they love big families, and they love our Lord Jesus Christ and his mother.

The subject of the May 31 show had nothing to do with any of this. And Tim Staples sharply contrasted a traditional expression of Catholicism with those who willingly break communion with the Church.

Easy to see the difference, right?

Wrong, apparently....

Read more.
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  #2  
Old Jul 12, '13, 3:55 pm
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

On good! A redo on the 12th of August.

Patrick, after they get wind of this article, I have no doubt they will call in that day.
  #3  
Old Jul 12, '13, 4:45 pm
hwriggles4 hwriggles4 is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Mr. Coffin:

I didn't hear Catholic Answers Live that particular day, but I heard about it from an acquaintance who regularly attends the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) that is led by a priest from the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP). I know the FSSP is in union and communion with Rome, having been founded by former members of the SSPX in 1988.

I occasionally attend the Traditional Latin Mass myself, but I have only attended the one that is led by the FSSP. I find it to be reverent, and the congregation that regularly comes is on fire for the Catholic faith. Even though I don't know Latin very well (like you Mr. Coffin, I do know Spanish, which is a help), I am able to follow most of it, since I usually bring an old Latin Missal that belonged to my grandfather circa 1950 (my grandfather was Catholic, but my dad is Protestant).

Mr. Coffin, it sounds like quite a few people took this broadcast out of context (including my acquaintance) , who thought that Catholic Answers was attacking the FSSP, the Institute of Christ the King, or even the Canons Regular (the Canons regular have a parish in the Chicago area). What you mean by Extremely High Church Protestantism is something like the SSPX. I don't know what the "splinter groups" that were referred, since the FSSP is in union and communion with Rome.

Basically Mr. Coffin, I think your broadcast in August (with you and Mr. Staples) just needs to make it more clear that going to a Traditional Latin Mass that is led by the FSSP, the Canons Regular, or the Institute of Christ the King is fine. I also know of some good Catholics in Columbus (Ohio) that attend a more traditional downtown parish that is led by the Dominicans.

Thanks.
  #4  
Old Jul 12, '13, 4:52 pm
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormar View Post
On good! A redo on the 12th of August.

Patrick, after they get wind of this article, I have no doubt they will call in that day.
Ooops! Too late to edit my post. That should read "Oh good!" and not "On good!"
  #5  
Old Jul 12, '13, 5:04 pm
MacBP MacBP is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwriggles4 View Post
Mr. Coffin:

I didn't hear Catholic Answers Live that particular day, but I heard about it from an acquaintance who regularly attends the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) that is led by a priest from the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP). I know the FSSP is in union and communion with Rome, having been founded by former members of the SSPX in 1988.

I occasionally attend the Traditional Latin Mass myself, but I have only attended the one that is led by the FSSP. I find it to be reverent, and the congregation that regularly comes is on fire for the Catholic faith. Even though I don't know Latin very well (like you Mr. Coffin, I do know Spanish, which is a help), I am able to follow most of it, since I usually bring an old Latin Missal that belonged to my grandfather circa 1950 (my grandfather was Catholic, but my dad is Protestant).

Mr. Coffin, it sounds like quite a few people took this broadcast out of context (including my acquaintance) , who thought that Catholic Answers was attacking the FSSP, the Institute of Christ the King, or even the Canons Regular (the Canons regular have a parish in the Chicago area). What you mean by Extremely High Church Protestantism is something like the SSPX. I don't know what the "splinter groups" that were referred, since the FSSP is in union and communion with Rome.

Basically Mr. Coffin, I think your broadcast in August (with you and Mr. Staples) just needs to make it more clear that going to a Traditional Latin Mass that is led by the FSSP, the Canons Regular, or the Institute of Christ the King is fine. I also know of some good Catholics in Columbus (Ohio) that attend a more traditional downtown parish that is led by the Dominicans.

Thanks.
Here's the thing: I did hear the broadcast and CA made it clear that they were NOT talking about those Catholics who enjoy TLM. That was in the first hour. Perhaps they didnt hear the full show?
  #6  
Old Jul 12, '13, 5:50 pm
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agnes therese agnes therese is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBP View Post
Here's the thing: I did hear the broadcast and CA made it clear that they were NOT talking about those Catholics who enjoy TLM. That was in the first hour. Perhaps they didnt hear the full show?
I also heard the show. I thought they made it very clear exactly who they were discussing. I'm not sure how people could misinterpret if they listened to the whole show.
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  #7  
Old Jul 12, '13, 6:01 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is online now
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Mad-Trads? What a lapse of charity and love. Name-calling should be beneath any Catholic, but there it is from a celebrity Catholic. I'm a moderator on another forum and I know what it's like to take in your computer face vitriol and to be called names. Fortunately, the man in charge tells us to never return fire in kind. This whole subject regarding "Traditionalists" means I will be skipping this program, and this celebrity has dropped a notch in my book, not as a person, but, in this specific case, by showing a bad example to others.

And what is the point of that photo? Spoiling for a fight? That's not Catholic. I ask that it be removed, or replaced with a devil in red with a pitchfork.



Peace,
Ed
  #8  
Old Jul 12, '13, 8:13 pm
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

[quote=Therese Martin;10973202]Meet the Mad-Trads


Quote:
Put another way, Extremely High Church Protestantism.

It is not clear to me why the Apologists post things that would earn regular CAF members the wrath of the moderators if they posted it. In the first instance you have a disparaging and disrespectful name-calling, and in the second 'Protestantism' is clearly being used as an insult in an attempt to draw the reader in, I suppose. I really do not appreciate this. I did not read any more because I was offended, although offended enough to protest via this post. It is also extremely historically inaccurate, and somewhat bizarre to compare the subject of the present article with the Protestant Reformation. It tells me the author knows little or nothing of Protestant thought and completely shatters his credibility. Perhaps he is merely after sensationalism.

I would expect the Apologists to be held to an extremely high standard of charity. I guess I was wrong.
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  #9  
Old Jul 13, '13, 3:53 am
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

[quote=Tomyris;10974208]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therese Martin View Post
Meet the Mad-Trads





It is not clear to me why the Apologists post things that would earn regular CAF members the wrath of the moderators if they posted it. In the first instance you have a disparaging and disrespectful name-calling, and in the second 'Protestantism' is clearly being used as an insult in an attempt to draw the reader in, I suppose. I really do not appreciate this. I did not read any more because I was offended, although offended enough to protest via this post. It is also extremely historically inaccurate, and somewhat bizarre to compare the subject of the present article with the Protestant Reformation. It tells me the author knows little or nothing of Protestant thought and completely shatters his credibility. Perhaps he is merely after sensationalism.

I would expect the Apologists to be held to an extremely high standard of charity. I guess I was wrong.
I agree with this.

I've received infractions on CAF for using the kind of inflammatory "critic-style" language in this blog. The moderators claimed that the language I used tended to incite anger in people. They also said that it showed disrespect for the Catholic Church.

I certainly didn't intend to incite anger or be disrespectful. I was just trying to use creative writing, the type that the movie and theater critics use when they write up their critiques. But I can certainly see the moderators' point--it IS difficult to read this blog without getting upset about the satirical "exaggeration" style of writing.

And sometimes, yes, it is difficult to determine exactly which Catholics the writers of the blog are talking about. I think getting rid of the hyper-language would be helpful to make things crystal clear. I have never heard the phrase "Mad Trad" until this column. Now it's in my mind, and I wish it wasn't,because it isn't one of the lovely, true, high-minded thoughts that St. Paul admonishes us to dwell upon.

And I absolutely agree about the picture. It's not necessary. It's mean-spirited. This isn't Saturday Night Live, where we KNOW that it's meant to be satire. This is an answers forum, and we expect to find the truth.

One of my problems with this picture and blog is that there are plenty of Protestants who are investigating Catholicism and they find their way to CAF. I did, almost ten years ago (see my "join date"). Most Evangelical Protestants have no idea that there are "divisions" in the Catholic Church. I'm going to be very honest now, and I hope this doesn't offend Catholics--when Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, discover that yes, there are divisions in the Catholic Church, they become extremely disillusioned and disgusted . Yes, that's the proper word--disgusted. Here they've been told by their Catholic friends and the local priests that the Catholic Church is "One," and then they discover that no, it's far from One. In fact, Catholics fight over the same things that Protestants fight about, including music, dress code, "who's in charge," etc.

It's very discouraging, and it's a total turn-away for many Evangelical Protestants. And it's very difficult for a local Catholic to try to debate a Protestant who has read this kind of thing on CAF, because many local Catholics have no idea that there is any conflict, because there ISN'T any obvious conflict in their town or city. In fact, sadly, until I came to CAF, I had no idea that there was any conflict between the Latin Mass adherents and the OF Mass adherents. We've had Latin Mass in our city since the 1990s, and I just thought it was another option. I had no idea--and I'm frankly sorry that I ever discovered that there is conflict (although I really don't see it in our city).

Anyway, I encourage the CAF staff to please consider posting a warning at the very beginning of the blog to inquiring Protestants who are reading the article. Tell them that just like all other Christians, Catholics are humans who struggle with sin, and that these divisions in the Church are not what the Catholic Church is all about. Please don't be the cause of Protestants leaving this website and walking away from further investigation of the Catholic Church.
  #10  
Old Jul 13, '13, 7:08 am
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

I see it is still up, to greet us when we come to the site, nice and friendly "Hello to CAF".

Two points to make:

1) I'm thinking Mr. Coffin thought this was funny. If he thinks the denigration and stereotyping of those he disagrees with is funny, we can look forward to seeing the hook-nosed Jew counting his money or the Muslim with a bloody scimitar and a suicide vest when we come to this site, or the watermelon-eating, barefoot darkie. No doubt these are equally hilarious to him, and CAF, in posting this as the very first thing, shares in his view. I expect the angry Bible-thumping Protestant will show up. Unfortunately this perception of the non-Catholic is one that is carried forward on many forum threads, where an assumed hostility of the Catholic Church is carried by many. There are many Catholics who post in a way that demonstrates they hate non-Catholics and never seem to be censored or corrected. I sometimes wonder if CAF simply agrees with that. Mr. Coffin is carrying on that fine tradition.

2) His blatant violation of the rules underscores a real problem I have with the Catholic Church, and that is the double standard, one for laity, and one for clergy, or, here, an apologist. A normal lowly poster would get gigged hard for this but he gets away with it. The instinct of the hierarchy is to come down on us underlings but protect those in power, which is the opposite of the way things should be. Shepherds and teachers should protect the flock, not lead it astray.

The longer this "Mad-Trad" thing stays up, the more it will confirm to me, and to many others, that CAF has simply absorbed some things that it should not.

It would not surprise me to get banned for this post. After all, I am an underling and he is someone in power. CAF has to protect its apologists Who Can Do No Wrong, as bishops have habitually protected priests. But my hope is that Mr. Coffin can offer an apology for his apologetics and fix things. Will he? I do not know. What happens will be very telling.
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  #11  
Old Jul 13, '13, 7:47 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

What I object to in the article is its misleading assertion about where the criticism came from. The article states that the strongest criticism came from third-party reports. Wrong. The strongest criticism came from those who listened to the show.
  #12  
Old Jul 13, '13, 7:56 am
Brendan 64 Brendan 64 is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Personally I have no issue with the article.

If the article had had the title 'Mad-modernists' would there be such complaints about it?

As for the expression "High Church Protestantism" well denying the authority of the Vatican (or an Ecumenical Council) breaking Communion with Rome, and walking away because the Church was too 'liberal'. What is that, if not a form of Protestantism?

It's an interesting and well-written article, as far as I'm concerned.
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  #13  
Old Jul 13, '13, 9:03 am
LucyLight LucyLight is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

I listened to the show and they made it very clear that they were not discussing Catholics who describe themselves as traditional. Instead they were discussing "splinter groups" and how to bring them back to the church. It seemed like half the show was spent making this very clear. The groups discussed were not made fun of but treated with respect and charity. If you are new to these discussions and tuned into the show you might wonder why they were being so PC, almost apologetic for even discussing the topic.


I have seen comments about the radio show on blogs, forums etc and they often start with saying, "I didn't hear the show", followed with a rant about how they heard that the show was an attack on traditionalists. I'm sure they received plenty of emails that started the same way.

If I was Patrick Coffin or Tim Staples I think my head would explode. I'm glad Patrick Coffin was able to address the show with a bit of humor. This discussion could use some levity.
  #14  
Old Jul 13, '13, 9:32 am
Elizabeth502 Elizabeth502 is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucyLight View Post
I listened to the show
As did I.

Quote:
This discussion could use some levity.
But not mockery, marginalizing, caricature, misrepresentation, and images which do the same.
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Old Jul 13, '13, 11:12 am
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Lormar Lormar is offline
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Default Re: Meet the Mad-Trads

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth502 View Post
As did I.



But not mockery, marginalizing, caricature, misrepresentation, and images which do the same.
I agree with you, Elizabeth. In fact, I was going to ask today on this thread what the point of having the show is.

If it is to try to regain traditionals for the Church, mocking them won't do it. Yes, I know. We can all point to countless articles written by traditionals calling Catholics within the Church all types of names. But, I thought we were above that. And two wrongs don't make a right.

If it is just to marginalize them more. it will be successful to continue in the same manner.
 

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