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  #1  
Old Jun 5, '15, 1:44 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default If God became man....

If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

.
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  #2  
Old Jun 5, '15, 6:16 am
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Neofight Neofight is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

.
God didn't have to become man; He chose to become man, and humanity did not "kill" God.

When God became man, the Word became flesh, but still retained His divinity.

Therefore, humanity, while responsible for taking the human life of the very human, Jesus, the divine (God) certainly was not killed, as proven by the resurrection and ascension.

Peace and all good!
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  #3  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:03 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

.
"Humanity" is an abstraction and, as such, can't do anything, including killing God. Individual men killed God (the Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate at the bequest of the Sanhedrin).
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  #4  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:06 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
God didn't have to become man; He chose to become man, and humanity did not "kill" God.

When God became man, the Word became flesh, but still retained His divinity.

Therefore, humanity, while responsible for taking the human life of the very human, Jesus, the divine (God) certainly was not killed, as proven by the resurrection and ascension.

Peace and all good!
As you know, Neofight, Jesus wasn't just "very human" but also God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is "killing God."

The logic is the same as saying Mary is not jus the Mother of the "very human" Jesus, but of God. As Jesus is God anything done to Jesus is done to God, including giving birth to Him and killing Him.
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  #5  
Old Jun 5, '15, 7:13 am
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

[quote=PietroPaolo;13026529]]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?
.
. . . Jesus was . . . . God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is "killing God." [/quote

Killing means the death of the physical body. So, since Jesus is God and He was killed in the flesh, yes that would be Deicide.
Remember, even as with homicide, the body is killed since the spirit is eternal.
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  #6  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:01 am
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Neofight Neofight is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
As you know, Neofight, Jesus wasn't just "very human" but also God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is "killing God."

The logic is the same as saying Mary is not jus the Mother of the "very human" Jesus, but of God. As Jesus is God anything done to Jesus is done to God, including giving birth to Him and killing Him.
You misunderstood. By "very", I did not mean "just", I meant "really" or "completely"...although there is a risk that if you take this literally as you did my previous response, you will be quick to retort that He was human in all ways except he was free of sin....regardless....He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son.

Your confusion seems to be you are wrestling eith, as many of do, the concept of the God head and the Holy Trinity , as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity. Two persons who are not human, and one (God the Son) who became human, and thus unlike the other two persons (Father and Holy Spirit) was both Human and divine.

Again, divinity cannot be killed, so Father and Holy Spirit cannot be killed, nor can the divinity of the Son, but the human body of the Son could be and was killed.

More perplexing about your contention is that the human Jesus was not killed, is that then His body did not rise on the third day, and you have inadvertently dismissed the theology of the Resurrection (His resurrection and ours).

Peace and all good!
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  #7  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:07 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
"Humanity" is an abstraction and, as such, can't do anything, including killing God. Individual men killed God (the Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate at the bequest of the Sanhedrin).
So you are saying that "people" killed God??

.
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  #8  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:11 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post

Killing means the death of the physical body. So, since Jesus is God and He was killed in the flesh, yes that would be Deicide.
Remember, even as with homicide, the body is killed since the spirit is eternal.
So if Jesus is eternal, how is his physical death a sacrifice?

An eternal being knows no sacrifice......they are self contradicting.

.
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  #9  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:14 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
You misunderstood. By "very", I did not mean "just", I meant "really" or "completely"...although there is a risk that if you take this literally as you did my previous response, you will be quick to retort that He was human in all ways except he was free of sin....regardless....He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son.

Your confusion seems to be you are wrestling eith, as many of do, the concept of the God head and the Holy Trinity , as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity. Two persons who are not human, and one (God the Son) who became human, and thus unlike the other two persons (Father and Holy Spirit) was both Human and divine.

Again, divinity cannot be killed, so Father and Holy Spirit cannot be killed, nor can the divinity of the Son, but the human body of the Son could be and was killed.

More perplexing about your contention is that the human Jesus was not killed, is that then His body did not rise on the third day, and you have inadvertently dismissed the theology of the Resurrection (His resurrection and ours).

Peace and all good!
Sorry, this is still heretical,

"He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son."

There isn't two Jesuses, one Divine and one Human, but one Person - both fully human and fully Divine. Anything done to Jesus is, ipso facto, done to God. Perhaps, you are attempting to say that God the Father and God the HS were not killed (which is, of course, correct), but God was killed, in the fully Divine Person of Jesus Christ.

But you don't have to take my word for it, the CCC teaches,

This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience. (614)

If the CCC isn't enough, we also have the Synodal Epistle of Cyril which declares,

"If any man does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh and was crucified in the flesh, let him be anathema."

As you alluded to, the Trinity is a tough concept to get one's mind around. Perhaps you are trying to say that the Divine Person, God the Son, died not in His Divine Nature, but through His Human Nature. That would be theologically sound (in fact it is impossible for God to die through His impassible Divine Nature), but will still lead to the conclusion I drew above, God died.

Last edited by PietroPaolo; Jun 5, '15 at 8:26 am.
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  #10  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:15 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
So you are saying that "people" killed God??

.
Yes.
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  #11  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:25 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
Yes.
So for 3 days, creation did not have a Creator?

.
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  #12  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:28 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
So for 3 days, creation did not have a Creator?

.
No, that doesn't follow. God died, in the Second Person of the Trinity, through His human nature, but not in His Divine Nature. God the Father and God the HS, didn't die at all, and, even the dead, in His Human Nature, God the Son still existed (in fact He descended into hell, then rose again).
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  #13  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:30 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
So for 3 days, creation did not have a Creator?

.
I see you're not Christian. You'll need to tackle the Trinity before really understand any of this. I highly recommend Frank Sheed's Theology and Sanity which contains the simplest, clearest modern explanation of the Trinity that I know of. You can get it on Amazon HERE
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  #14  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:32 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
So if Jesus is eternal, how is his physical death a sacrifice?

An eternal being knows no sacrifice......they are self contradicting.

.
Jesus is eternal in His divine nature, but was mortal in His human nature (though Resurrected His human nature is now immortal). He suffered and died through His human nature, but it was still God (in the Divine Person of the Son) who suffered and died. In fact, being the perfect man, Jesus would have suffered immeasurably more than you or I if we underwent the same torture.
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  #15  
Old Jun 5, '15, 8:34 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
You misunderstood. By "very", I did not mean "just", I meant "really" or "completely"...although there is a risk that if you take this literally as you did my previous response, you will be quick to retort that He was human in all ways except he was free of sin....regardless....He, the human biologic Jesus was killed and died without killing the divine Son.

Your confusion seems to be you are wrestling eith, as many of do, the concept of the God head and the Holy Trinity , as opposed to the three persons of the Trinity. Two persons who are not human, and one (God the Son) who became human, and thus unlike the other two persons (Father and Holy Spirit) was both Human and divine.

Again, divinity cannot be killed, so Father and Holy Spirit cannot be killed, nor can the divinity of the Son, but the human body of the Son could be and was killed.

More perplexing about your contention is that the human Jesus was not killed, is that then His body did not rise on the third day, and you have inadvertently dismissed the theology of the Resurrection (His resurrection and ours).

Peace and all good!
For the record, I never made this "more perplexing... contention". That was another poster.
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