02 - Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

Continued from Here

Thanks for doing this 1 voice.

Originally Posted by Parker D
1voice,

What a translator realizes is that the order of words in a sentence affects how the sentence is understood, and that the order of words in one language may not be the order of words in another language.

It should be translated as “assurance of sharing glory which lives in you”. It should not say in translation, “Christ lives in you”. The word “Christ” would have either to do with the sharing of glory or with His grace which allows that sharing of glory.

huh?

if you read in context, Col 1:26-27

τὸ μυστήριον τὸ ἀποκεκρυμμένον ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων
καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν γενεῶν- νῦν δὲ ἐφανερώθη τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ,
οἷς ἠθέλησεν ὁ θεὸς γνωρίσαι τί τὸ πλοῦτος τῆς δόξης
τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν,
ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·

the verses are discussing ‘the mystery’. Antecedent of rel. ὅ
is clearly ‘mystery’ in 26&27 not ‘glory’ or ‘assurance of sharing glory’.
should be translated like everyone (even JWs) translates it
‘which the mystery is Christ in you’

BTW
Ὅτι δέ ἐστε υἱοί,
ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὰς καρδίας ἡμῶν
κρᾶζον· αββα ὁ πατήρ. (Gal 4:6)
Christians have ‘Christ in’ us. He lives in us.

John7,

The mystery to which Paul was referring is the entire passage included in Colossians 1:12-20, because the mission of Christ (and that He is the Creator and the Firstborn) is something the Jews weren’t looking for and therefore it was a “mystery” to the Jews.

As far as the Galatians 4:6 translation, it missed out on the important distinction that the words translated into “Spirit of his Son into your hearts” took the Greek plural word for “sons” and made it singular.

It should more correctly be translated as “sons”, which ties also directly to the following verse (7) and the prior verse (5). It is talking about being the “sons of God” and knowing this through the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) revealing this to the hearts of those who become converted. They then have a personal relationship with God the Father and feel to cry, “Abba, Father” because they know they are “sons of God” and “heirs of God through Christ.”

Here it is. I doubt there will be many threads from here on out, unless we get another LDS apologist with the level-headedness and persistence of Parker. :cool: You are aware that he worked with a team of consultants, aren’t you?

I wouldn’t doubt that he answered almost every post after having some deep discussions with a few dyed in the wool LDS “elders”, that went back many generations, to figure out how to respond. I get the same feeling about most of the other LDS that have posted since I’ve been here. It’s pretty comical when you think about it. Most of us just speak from the heart (I know I do), without asking anyone else their opinion of what we should say. But, according to LDS, we’re supposed to be the ones that are never led by the Holy Spirit, yet at the same time, it takes a “quorum” of LDS “thinkers” to come up with answers to try and refute our posts. And, when they can’t come up with a way to effectively defend their position, they just don’t bother responding, at all.

Maybe one of his group of elders/consultants will sign up and PD can be his back-up. :smiley:

I had him on ignore, towards the end, and would only respond if someone else would respond with a quote. It was the only way for me to cope. Really, so many of his saccharine responses were a contradiction to standard LDS thought. He was almost sounding NOM. Maybe once he gets free from his team of consultants…who knows?

Pre-mortal existence, responsibility for the sins of one’s ancestors, anything bad that happens to non-Mormons, everything good that happens to Mormons, they are all attempts to present a socially irresponsible solution for the problem of pain.

There is no way Parker could have gone on as long as he did, and saw this time on CAF as his nocturnal mission…saw through it a long time ago he had his consultants…

Only that lately the writing style would change from post to post some times…

Note that, Mormon sophists…there are those of us who also know how you define yourselves among yourselves…your nocturnal e-missions…

Anyone remember Planten…planting seeds of Islam…there were group of them pretending to be one person.

No more time for backwards proseltyzing Mormon men and their nocturnal e-missions here…Y’all should spend more time on what is truth…shame on all of you.

This is why Romney has a problem…etch a sketch…I pray the Mormon people break the bondage and get out of this system.

I am grateful for a God who was never a man. I am grateful the true Christ is honest and strong enough to keep His Church vibrant and alive from Peter till now. I am grateful we do not have prophets that we have to censor and/or ignore. And I am grateful for the Catholics here who stand up for the truth.

Parker,
So, When the Bible states:
For by him (Jesus Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible (Col 1:16)

… the word “all” does not mean “all” in this passage?


Continued from here

Originally Posted by 1voice:
It is my understanding that, according to LDS belief/ teaching…
each person has an eternal essence that has always existed.
Joseph Smith taught that…
“God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all.”

How does that fit with the Bible which states:
For by him (Jesus Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:16


Originally Posted by ParkerD … (Here)

1voice,

The subject of the “intelligence” has been discussed.

Here is the statement made by Joseph Smith:

“…God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God Himself could not create Himself. Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle.”

So the context shows more than the one phrase from the single sentence. The context, along with other teachings of Joseph Smith about an “intelligence”, and also another comment which states “Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 158), shows that Joseph Smith was talking about the “elementary state” of the spirit, which he described as an “intelligence”.

I had already agreed with that concept. The “intelligence” is different than our created spirit, and was the precursor of the spirit and had a uniqueness from one to another.


I’ve suspected for a while that there has been more than one person using the ParkerD login. Things he said as his personal belief changed 180 degrees from when he first started posting. His style and delivery changed. Whoever was on last night, reminded me of recent LDS posters who have already been banned.

If it was just one person all along, then that is one mightily confused individual.

As you know, I am fairly sensitive to authorship issues :D, but I wasn’t even following his posts, so…

1voice, I hate to be the bearer of “bad news”, but Parker cannot respond to any more of your questions. He’s been banned. :wink:

Hi Rebecca! Long time, no talk! :slight_smile: How are things in your neck of the woods?

That is an interesting observation - I haven’t been around in a while so I haven’t noticed.

I believe Parker has at least one child with special needs that he cares for and I hope all is well at their house. I’ll miss him and wish him all the best.

Do you think we’ll get another LDS poster to hang around and answer our questions? They don’t seem to last long anymore. Remember the days of Dianaiad? There used to be LDS posters that really knew how to discuss/debate in depth, but I haven’t seen any in a long time, except Parker.

Curious? Was a reason given?

They don’t seem to last long anymore. Remember the days of Dianaiad?

Diana wouldn’t last a week with the current moderation policy. :thumbsup: She was just a downright unpleasant person. When I divulged my ancestry and cultural background, she went off on me like a banshee.

Yes, I remember those days! She was very sharp-witted.

You are right - things have really tightened up on CAF! :smiley:

I am hoping someone from the LDS will join us and answer the questions regarding “pre-mortal existence” or we will just have to spend our time on this thread reminiscing about the good ol’ days! :stuck_out_tongue:

Hey Lax, things are fine around here. How about you?

Dianaiad would have answered, maybe snarky and all, but she would have answered.

I have not been able to spend as much time on this forum as in the past, due to my work and I am amazed that this thread has continued for so long. When I started this thread I was giving the benefit of the doubt to Mormon posters that there was something of substance, somewhere, that formed this foundational belief. It became apparent to me that in nearly every discussion on topics having to do with Mormonism we seemed to always be speaking past each other. ParkerD was in on this discussion from the beginning and, truthfully, his posts on other subjects were the reason for this thread. I could never seem to grasp his reasoning until I realized that this subject of “pre-mortal existence” was behind it all. It was so ingrained in his thought process that it influenced everything else without ever being addressed specifically.

I am totally surprised to find that ParkerD has been banned. I don’t think I have ever been so frustrated in trying to communicate with someone, but at least he was there and provided a means for discussion on many Mormon doctrines. I hope there will be someone to take his place.

As far as the question being answered, after all this time I find absolutely nothing convincing in the Mormon postion of “pre-mortal existence”. It seems to be a complete fabrication and a dangerous one at that. We are left with a God who is very small, without the ability to truly create; a God who is dependent rather than omnipotent and creatures who are equal to God, the only difference being one’s stage in the level of progression.

I pray that they may all someday know the majesty and glory of the one, true God who is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving; the Giver of life who created us from nothing, for no other reason than love; a love so powerful that he suffered and gave His own life to us undeserving creatures so that we might share in His divine life for eternity. It is truly sad that they have never known a God so great.

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