1 Corinthians 11:2-16 and supposed sexism

And I already gave my response here…

Is there some forum rule that states I am not allowed to give my own personal insight as an example of how we are not equal in the order of creation?

Why is it so hard for you to admit that your comment that my words are misogynistic were a little harsh?

God Bless

Are you making a point about the literal “order” of creation i.e. that man was created before woman? This only makes sense if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve. Since the Church allows for belief in evolution I fail t see your point.

No I was not making the point on the literal order of creation.

Genesis 2:21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

Whether you believe this is literal or figurative it doesn’t matter. The point here, that St. Paul is alluding to, is that the woman was made as a helper to man to make the man complete.

That’s why it goes on to say…

23 Then the man said,

“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,[c]
because she was taken out of Man.”[d]

24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

I can only tell you where St. Paul was going with this, it’s not my teaching it’s his.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

As for the insight with my examples I was just showing how God made man and woman different.

God bless

But wouldn’t that be the sexism they’re talking about? That it’s God>Man>Woman

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Yeah I guess that is what the complaining is about, But there has to be some order. So if it was woman then man would it still be sexist?

I guess so. If everything was a ‘matriarchy’ I would imagine a similar reaction. The argument atm is whether there should be an order right now or not, rather than woman>man or vice versa.

In terms of lifting, sure. In terms of surviving in adverse conditions, women are stronger. Women are capable of doing things men could never do, and vice versa.

No the argument proposed in this thread is whether or not God set it up that way. And if He did does that make God sexist.

Agreed, but this would also be dependent on the person in question. But none of this helps the OP answer her questions.

I think it’s important to remember that the relationship between man and woman is a reflection between Christ and the Church. In reference to 1 Corinthians 11, I look to Ephesians 5:22-23 “Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.” I find parallels between 1 Corinthians 11 and Ephesians 5:22-23 in the relationship between man and woman. It’s not that as a woman, I was made only for man’s, but I was made to bring God glory. I bring him the most glory while being in the ‘presence’ of a man (that’s not the word I want to use, but I’m unsure of how else to put it), because it further highlights the characteristics that I have as a woman. As for the head covering, it symbolizes how sacred women are as life enters the world through a woman’s womb. And looking at Ephesians, women are able to be subordinate to their husbands, only because their husband (ideally) will be subordinate to Christ. And what did Christ do for his Bride? He gave up his life for Her. So I do agree that men are (or should be) natural protectors and leaders because they are called to have Christ be the head of them, and that’s what Jesus was to his Bride… In regards to being silent…it’s my first time being exposed to this first to be honest…my first thought about this refers to the Blessed Mother and other women throughout the scriptures. While their words were profound and impactful, what stands out the most (to me) is their presence. Like in John 19:25, “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.” As far as I’m aware, they did not speak during those moments, but they were there. I personally feel no words were needed because their presence says everything. Furthermore, I also feel that sometimes as I enter into prayer sometimes I don’t need to say anything and nor does Jesus, because his presence is one of peace, comfort, and pure love.
I hope that makes sense! Like I said, I’m definitely not a scholar in any sense and I have a lot to learn! But maybe this will help you and anyone else reading it :slight_smile:

  • God Bless,

Jas

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I’m talking about the women who think that is sexist, they argue that there should not be a hierarchy at all (ie they hold egalitarian views)

Thanks for the reply.

What’s your thoughts?

What’s your thoughts on if there should be an order right now?

What’s your thoughts on how our society, as a whole, is doing?

Do you think the blurring of this line has any bearing on men forgetting their roles as head of the household?

Do you think men no longer believing they are head of the household might be a factor in why we have so many fatherless children?

Lot’s of questions go along with the question of whether or not their should be an order right now. It’s not a simple yes or no answer.

Your thoughts?

God Bless

A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

(just copied and pasted, sorry if it’s messy)

Looking at the verses, it doesn’t seem like women are to bring glory in the presence of men. I’m not going to pretend I know, because this is one of my least favorite things to reads. But the general consensus is that man was made from dirt/God/idk, and woman was made from the glory of God, which is the man. Hence, these verses were meant to be a poetic way of saying that.

However, reading in context does not seem that way (just my plain old opinion). He did mention later on that men and women are dependent on each other and talked about basic biology.

With the other verses in context, including all of the verses about submission (ephesians 5 isn’t the only one, and other verses about it did not mention the church imagery), it seems as if patriarchy is favored but the apostles emphasised that abuse of women is wrong…which is pretty self explanatory given the whole Jesus and Love thing, lol.

As for the silent thing, that verse was in reference to a really messy church where it was really unbecoming of a place of worship. That verses were basically meant to keep them in place. Women really don’t have to keep quiet. If we did, this church would be a huge tragedy!

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It’s complicated I guess.

I understand a need for an order in certain cultures and time periods, where women can’t support themselves even if they tried. Where men’s natural advantage (strength) was valued for obvious reasons.

Now, where I have much more freedom than ever, it seems weird to expect a society where men are to lead the public sphere. Why keep women out/not encourage women to be leaders in these areas…? Plenty of women have proved that they are just as capable.

Society is crap right now. But I don’t think a plain old patriarchy will be the magical cure. Nor do I think that the dismantling of it was the main problem. You can easily argue that there are times where society was much worse than this, and it was led by men,which is why I don’t like to attribute something to just one cause.

In families, I don’t care as much. Whatever works for the couple. I personally don’t care about people’s personal relationships as long as both are 100% on board with it. I don’t like it when it gets enforced on people though. I’m not married and I don’t know my future, but I don’t see myself submitting to someone just because he’s a guy. I would submit because that person knows more than me on a matter. But if someone else loves to do that, then good for her.

As for the fatherless question, I don’t know. I’ve seen men who walked out, despite being overly traditional and conservative. It’s a lot more complicated than them just believing in a hierarchy. It’s selfishness, cowardice, greed etc that can infect everybody, imo.

Lots of questions do go along with that and I don’t mind discussing it, of course (including the negative ones e.g. Rape/mistreatment of women/women’s development being neglected for the sake of men’s). It’s not so simple, I agree.

Makes sense, thank you!

Jas

I apologize if this is what you think I am saying. Not at all. I totally agree I have met some great leaders that are women, and have met some terrible leaders that are men.

So as to not be called a misogynist again (which is how this all started), all I’m going to say is yes at one time in certain cultures woman being thought of as worthless was a problem. However, the solution to the problem isn’t for society to start viewing men as worthless and not needed. Just look at television and the media they are constantly pushing the agenda of the worthless male or the good for nothing father. That’s not what society needs right now.

Totally agree. I think forgetting who we are and what our God given purposes are in life is the main problem.

Yeah I don’t agree with this. This is called Relativism and no matter how many times people say whatever we do behind closed doors is our business, it won’t make it true. Society is proof positive of this.

Nor should you.

Good for you.

So many people misunderstand Ephesians 5:22-25

22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Don’t ever let a man tell you this verse means you have to submit to him because he is your master.

Yes the verse says wives submit to your husbands, but not because he is in charge. It is because as the husband and father he was given the duty to stand in the place of Christ in the relationship. St. Paul goes on to tell use that as the head of the marriage he is to love you as Jesus loved the church. Jesus sacrificed all that he had for the church which means the husband is suppose to sacrifice all for the wife and family in every decision he makes. Wow that’s a lot to ask of one person. Sure seems to me the husband got the tougher of the two teachings in this passage.

Basically, the husband is suppose to look at what’s best for the family, not what he wants.

Basically all this verse is saying to the wives is, you should have absolutely no problem submitting to your husband because every decision he makes should be through the love of Christ, which would be the only decision possible.

I see no problem in the wife saying to the husband “Are you absolutely sure that’s what Jesus would do”?

Totally agree, but if they walked out it tells me they don’t understand the true meaning of hierarchy and tradition since they’re selfishness, cowardice, greed etc, proves that they did not understand the above verse.

Great questions and responses.

God Bless

How would we then explain other verses on submission (colossians, 1 Peter)? The church analogy was not used, just them reminding husbands to basically not be be abusive. Why do we always go to Ephesians 5 and not the other 2?

I don’t care about what couples do in their relationship in terms of submission because I feel like we are all different. In some relationships, the wife can be a lot smarter than the husband. In others, vice versa. It’s bound to look different in every couple so enforcing some sort of template just seems so unnecessary imo.

I don’t agree with guys saying that they got the tougher end here. Everyone is called to the same radical love and it’s much harder to be in a position where your will doesn’t not always get fulfilled just because well, you’re a woman?

And also, the thing is that we don’t have a clear idea of what this ideal patriarchy look like. Just in this forum alone, we have guys that view this differently. So negative consequences are bound to happen, imo.

I think with all of these verses it comes down to how you want to interpret them. That’s the big problem we have with the entire Bible. Everyone wants to be their sole rule of faith. That’s why I’m Catholic, Jesus left me a visible shepherd to guide me in situations like these.

I see no big deal with Colossians 3:18-21. Catholics don’t just pick and choose verses and go see it says it right here. We read every verse in the context of the Chapter, book and of the entire Bible.

So when I read this submission of wives and husbands love your wives I read it in light of what I have come to understand from Ephesians 5.

In 1 Peter 3 once again there is that dreaded submit/accept your husbands authority, but in verse 7 it says Husbands, in the same way,

I see no difficulty. But that’s me, it’s easy for me to see this because (aside from God) my wife is the most important person in my life, even more important than me.

This is the point I’m trying to make. There isn’t some sort of template. Sure you can read the text and say see right there is a template, but you’re only reading one verse, you’re not putting together everything there is about the faith and morals needed to be living out the Christian life.

I’m sorry if my words offended you, but what I meant by this, is if the husband isn’t sacrificing more for the relationship than his wife, then in my opinion he isn’t living up to what is being taught in Ephesians.

Agreed, we are all called to the same radical love. However, you are missing my point. The point I am making, and have lived out for the last 25 wonderful (and at times not so wonderful) years of marriage, is the one who’s will doesn’t always get fulfilled is suppose to be the husband.

Agreed, and I think you would agree that their is no ONE ideal form of patriarchy.

That’s why I love being Catholic. The Church will dogmatically lead us in regards to faith and morals. We need to keep these teachings in mind when we read verses like this and apply them to our lives. Without that visible shepherd here on earth we don’t have these faith and morals set in stone and we can read whatever we want into these verses. This is very dangerous territory, that’s the problem the OP @Brittany is having with her friends. Just look at society, decisions are made on a daily basis, that effect all of us, without ever taking into account the value of faith and morals.

Thanks for the response.

I am enjoying this conversation.

God Bless

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