so lets end this on going division - so lets ask.seek and find - so after all these centuries let us ask and seek to find out.Which one of these four does the Church really teach and accept - by faith alone - by good works alone - by faith and works - by grace and faith - twinc
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
Saved by faith, which is itself a gift - that’s grace.
Saved FOR works - which God has prepared for us. That’s cooperation with grace.
You can’t have one without the other - that’s James’ point:
What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
Obviously, this argument has been around since the earliest days of the Church, since James felt the need to teach on it in the strongest of terms.
By faith, which comes from grace alone, working through love, which also comes from grace alone.
No per James2:24
- by good works alone -
No per Eph 2:9
by faith and works -
by grace and faith - twinc
Yes - With faith being alive as defined by James 2:24-
And luke8: 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
the question was which one of the four does the ChURCH accept and teach - a simple question seeking a simple answer - so what do we gather from the answers so far - so is there anyone prepared to answer simply is the answer 1,2,3 or 4 - twinc
Well, it’s by grace, faith, and works. You didn’t put that up there.
4 plus works.
- None of the above.
You set up a false premise - that one of the four possibilities you cited was the official position of the Church. But none of the four options is complete.
nothing false about it at all - it is to counter what many think or say the Church teaches and what the Church actually teaches and cannot teach any other - try again - twinc
is that what you think the Church teaches or is it what the Church teaches - twinc
What is this, a game? You’ve been given the answer, more than once.
By grace, through faith, for works.
In the case of Twinc any answers given to him go in one ear and out the other, unless of course he’s maybe smoking something.
He’s very adept at being irritating.
It is what the Church teaches. Sorry, I thought I had posted this earlier from Trent:
"Having, therefore, been justified and made the friends and domestics of God…they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice **received through the grace of Christ **and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still [Rev 22:11-12; cf. 1 John 3:7].” (Chapter X)
Hope that helps.
=twinc;6896842]so lets end this on going division - so lets ask.seek and find - so after all these centuries let us ask and seek to find out.Which one of these four does the Church really teach and accept - by faith alone - by good works alone - by faith and works - by grace and faith - twinc
My dear friend in Christ. Your desire is well founded, but like the theory of “Faith Alone” the division you speak of is 1. Ententional 2. Unbiblical and 3. Necessary for other religions [not based on Christ Teaching of ONE CHURCH, that has over 100 referenes of this FACT in the NT] to have “cause” made up, not actual] for there existence.
That said; it’s not going to disapear bcause many desire that it remain.
Love and prayers,
A Brother in Christ,
CCC makes no reference in index to good works except one by a cherished Doctor of the Church viz CCC2011 "after earth’s exile,I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland,but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven.I want to work for your love alone…in the evening of this life,I shall appear before you with empty hands,for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works.All our justice is blemished in your eyes.I,wish,then to be clothed in your oiwn justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself[Story of a soul] - twinc
It may not be a keyword in the index but on a quick check I count 39 references in the text to “good works,” “works of mercy,” “works of charity,” etc. (Not counting those which refer to the works of God, only those which are specifically about the works of the faithful.)
I don’t know why I bother to answer you at all . . . :shrug:
Indeed, we shouldn’t be doing our good works because we want to merit for ourselves selfishly. We should do good works because of love for God. May want to read St. Catherine’s “Dialogue”. Gives a great explanation of the love of God. Faith working through charity. Great quote!
neither do I know why you bother to answer me when we sould and could accept what St Therese of Lisieux has to say as regards empty hands - twinc
i am still a begniner, but my understanding is that
catholics teach that any “good” works we carry out / fruit produced are brought about by Gods grace and our participation in that grace, by responding to it with a faith that is alive.
so we are empty handed per St Therese, as any good works attributed to us are actually Gods work. By participating in His grace with faith we produce this fruit that keeps us on the vine.
i’m sure there are better sections from the CCC but the one below seemed relevant.
*2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God. *
panevino - I can go along with much of what you say - let us in humility remember that there are many bedridden,crippled,too young or in other ways unable to do any or many good works than some of us - so will they then have the more inferior mansions - btw what proportion or percentage should be faith and what percentage should be good works - just pondering and wondering - twinc
Thanks for positive response.
I think the following analogy helps
Cripple crawling across floor
athlete running 100m in 10 sec
I dont think Faith and works should be separated.
Which is what I read in James 2:18-24