1 John 2:23


#1

"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

Bible says: Reject the Son = Reject the Father
Bible DOES NOT say: If you accept the Father but you’re understanding of the Trinity and who God is is not correct and you deny Jesus, you are still worshiping the same God.

So…Muslims and present day Jews who flat out reject the Son who made Himself known to the world are indeed not worshiping the same True God. For the Word of God says so.


#2

Correct.


#3

They certainly don’t have the benefit of knowing God as well, having failed to recognize Him in the revelation of His Son.


#4

The passage doesn’t say that they aren’t worshiping the same God, it just says that if they reject the Son that they do not have the Father. This meaning that they can still worship the same God, but that God would not be with them because they reject the Son.


#5

No one who denies the Son has the Father…
They certainly don’t have the benefit of knowing God as well…
it just says that i
f they reject the Son…
.

So I have a question (Perhaps a naive one, so bear with me…): is denial and rejection the same as not knowing?
To me denial and rejection indicate "I know you and will not follow you
Not knowing is “I’m sorry, I do not know of whom who speak. We haven’t been introduced.”

Again, I am a newbie in many ways… thanks.


#6

Muslims don’t seem to even talk about the Father, although they claim to worship the same God. They don’t refer to themselves as ‘children’, but rather ‘servants’ of Allah.


#7

Forgive my typo… ‘of whom you speak…’


#8

I don’t mean this uncharitable, but Islam always seems to me like a slave religion. It makes me wonder who Mohammed was talking to all those years ago.


#9

[quote="cheezey, post:5, topic:311159"]
No one who denies **the Son has the Father....
**They certainly don't have the benefit of knowing God as well....


it just says that i*f they reject the Son...*.

So I have a question (Perhaps a naive one, so bear with me..): is denial and rejection the same as not knowing?
To me denial and rejection indicate "I know you and will not follow you
Not knowing is "I'm sorry, I do not know of whom who speak. We haven't been introduced."

Again, I am a newbie in many ways... thanks.

[/quote]

Denial and rejection are not the same thing as not knowing.


#10

**“No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”

Bible says: Reject the Son = Reject the Father
Bible DOES NOT say: If you accept the Father but you’re understanding of the Trinity and who God is is not correct and you deny Jesus, you are still worshiping the same God.*

So…Muslims and present day Jews who flat out reject the Son who made Himself known to the world are indeed not worshiping the same True God. For the Word of God says so.**

So I have a question (Perhaps a naive one, so bear with me…): is denial and rejection the same as not knowing?
To me denial and rejection indicate "I know you and will not follow you

Not knowing is "I’m sorry, I do not know of whom who speak. We haven’t been introduced.
*

Right, I know, that’s my point, so help me to understand the first post, if you would please. No one can reject Who they do not know.


#11

I’m agreeing with you. I disagree with the conclusion drawn in the first post.


#12

The passage is addressing gnostic beliefs…it has nothing to do with rejecting Jesus as God’s Son in the sense the posts indicated…if read from the view point of some of the Gnostic beliefs…the passage makes a lot more sense…the writer of 1 John was addressing Gnositcism not Muslim or Jewish belief.


#13

Yes–2 John 7-9 parallels this part of 1 John, and again it’s about early Gnostics.


#14

I can understand where you’re coming from with Islam (even if they DO worship the same God as us). However, making these claims about Judaism is completely off-kilter. First off, our Old Testament is their holy book. That religion the OT follows the story of? Yeah, it’s Judaism. It cannot be and is not Christianity, because Christ had to come to Earth before Christianity could even exist. Also, if Judaism worships a false god, then why did Jesus not found his religion during his life? Christianity was once a sect of Judaism. Acts of the Apostles tells the story of how we became a religion of our own.

Also:

[quote=“Catechism of the Catholic Church”]841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
[/quote]


#15

The Old Testament followers all worshiped the Trinitarian God, though the revelation of the Trinity had not yet been revealed. However, they stilled worshiped him as Trinity, and we can see several examples of the pre-incarnate God the Son appearing to individuals in the Old Testament. With the fulfillment of the Trinitarian revelation, the true nature of God was revealed, and now men are held accountable.

What often amazes me is that people seem to have a rather henotheistic view of the Trinity when it comes to this subject. What I mean is, what everyone seems to forget is that Christ is not just a person, but is God the Son, and in him the fullness of the deity dwells (Col 2:9). If you reject God the Son, you reject God in toto - that’s why 1 John 2:23 says what it does. If you do not worship God the Son, you do not worship God. QED. Whether or not Jesus decided to find a new “religion” is beside the point. True “Jews” today are those who are of faith (Ro 9:6-8; Gal 3:7-9), that is, those who have been regenerated and worship God the Son, their Messiah, Lord, and God.


#16

False, actually. As I remember, it’s only Messianic Jews who see Jesus that way. All other Jewish groups don’t think he was the Messiah and are still waiting.


#17

So you’re saying the apostle Paul was wrong? Because, if you read my original post, I cited scriptural text to verify what I was saying. In case you missed it:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. [Romans 9:6-8]

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. [Galatians 3:7-9]

The only true “Jews” today - that is, those who follow the faith of Abraham and worship the same God he did - are Christians.


#18

Byzantine Wolf–

There can be a variety of reasons that people of other religions don’t recognize Jesus as the Christ. God alone is able to discern their culpability or innocence for that.

Again, rejection and denial are not the same thing as not knowing or not recognizing.


#19

[quote="AbideWithMe, post:18, topic:311159"]
Byzantine Wolf--

There can be a variety of reasons that people of other religions don't recognize Jesus as the Christ. God alone is able to discern their culpability or innocence for that.

Again, rejection and denial are not the same thing as not knowing or not recognizing.

[/quote]

This is not just a matter of rejecting Jesus as Christ - this is a matter of rejecting Christ as God, and if you reject Christ as God and do not worship him, you do not worship God. Your reasons for doing so are irrelevant, that is a reality that will be dealt with. Those who reject Christ will be rejected by the Trinity, as is often stated in scripture. Christ stated those who denied him before men would be denied them before his Father (Mt 10:33). Christ told the unbelieving Jews: "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also" (Jn 8:19); and likewise, "If God were your Father, you would love me" (Jn 8:42). He told the disciples: "No one comes to the Father except through me" (Jn 14:6); and likewise, "Whoever hates me hates my Father also" (Jn 15:23). Finally, we have the apostle John in the previously quoted verse with "no one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also" (1 Jn 2:23).

Might I ask where in scripture does it speak of "not knowing" or "not recognizing"? Where does it say a person may receive forgiveness for rejection of God and denying Him based on this?


#20

Are you saying Paul was wrong? Read Romans 9.


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