1 John 5:16-18


#21

Thank you, ahs.

So evaluate this conclusion then:

The only sin that actually dooms you for sure is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is attributing the works of the Spirit to Satan because then you are in a state of permanent rejection of Christ. A sin which is consciously committed is not a mortal sin unless it is committed for the sake of sinning, or committed specifically because it is a sin.
In other words, If I take a cookie because I know it will make my parents mad, that is very different from me taking a cookie because I really want a cookie, despite my knowledge that it will make my parents mad.


#22

[quote="Jm102294, post:21, topic:311481"]
Thank you, ahs.

So evaluate this conclusion then:

The only sin that actually dooms you for sure is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is attributing the works of the Spirit to Satan because then you are in a state of permanent rejection of Christ. A sin which is consciously committed is not a mortal sin unless it is committed for the sake of sinning, or committed specifically because it is a sin.
In other words, If I take a cookie because I know it will make my parents mad, that is very different from me taking a cookie because I really want a cookie, despite my knowledge that it will make my parents mad.

[/quote]

Sort of. Even if you don't commit it for the sake of sinning, but for the sake of benefiting from the sin, it can still be mortal sin. Let me give another example. Let's pretend that God has said, "...thou shalt not slap your brother in the face..."

If I am angry with "bill" and, having lost control of my senses, in fit of fury, I reach across and slap him, I have sinned. But, I did not have full consent of the will (well, that could actually be argued...if I knew I had anger problems and didn't address them, etc...but let's say I was taken by surprise by my emotions). My sin is venial.

Now let's put myself back in the same situation, except this time I have full control over my emotions, I know exactly what I'm doing, and out of anger I slap "bill" in the face, with the full intent to cause him whatever "harm" may come from the slap, or gain whatever "gratification" I may receive by doing it. My sin is mortal.


#23

But when you slap him in anger, isn't that still what you're willing at that particular moment? Are you not still slapping him to satisfy yourself? I don't see why the presence of anger makes any fundamental difference.


#24

=Jm102294;10245349]Can anybody explain these few verses to me? What sin doesn't lead to death? And does verse 18 mean that once we become Christians, we never sin again?

:D yep and going from memory too.

God is a "Just" and a "Fair God"; therefore he obligates Himself not to judhe every wronful action as being equal.

Murder for example is a greater sin than stealing an apple from your nighbors tree. BOTH are sins; One could send one to hell [murder]; the other NOT.

So John speaks here od the nature of Sins: both "greater = unto spiritual death" and lesser = not by themselves having the power of EFFECT to send one to hell.

We call them Mortal Sins =UNTO SPIRITUAL DEATH
and Venial = not unto by itself able to condem one to hell

LOOK also at 1st. John 1: 8-10 and note that everyone is either a "sinner" or a "liar."

THEN READ JOHN 20:19-23 AND SEE HOW CHRIST; OUR PERFECT GOD OFFERS HIS REMEDY TO BOTH TYPES OF SIN.

"Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews*, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. **The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. **He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. *As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained**"

This is Our God telling us what we MUST DO. It's clear, precise, and binding on all of us.

Through the Sacrament of Confession to Catholic Priest. This is the ONLY normal and Gods STANDARD way for haveing ones sins forgiven in FACT; not speculation and hope**:o

This was not a new idea with God; but a NOW Perfected OT practice.

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." *… Lev.6:7 *“and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

The common idea of OSAS; forgiveness though Faith and the like is simply man-made hochus pockus dreams. It is NOT biblical and what I just shared is CLEARLY biblical.

I do NOT mean to be unchairitable here; but souls VERY well could be at risk outside of the CC and the Sacrament of Confession. Amen

  • God please lead many to your truth*.

#25

PJM:

If God is a just and fair God, then is He not also obligated to punish every sin not redeemed by asking for His forgiveness? If God cannot be in the presence of imperfection, and venial sin is still imperfection, then if we die before having our venial sins forgiven, then where can we go but Hell?
Suggesting that stealing a pack of gum and killing a 5 year old will both send someone to Hell if the sinner does not ask for forgiveness does not imply equal punishment for unequal sins if there can be varying levels of severity of punishment in Hell.

Also, I don't see how your passage from John shows that we must confess our sins to a Catholic priest... There is a place for confessing our sins to one another, no doubt. But that passage says nothing about a Priest or any other religious official. If we have to confess to a Catholic Priest, what happened to all the people who died between the resurrection and the establishment of the Catholic church? And you may say that the Catholic church was the original church established by Jesus so there was no time between. Even if we take that to be true (a step I'm not prepared to take), He certainly never defined just who can be a Priest...


#26

[quote="Jm102294, post:25, topic:311481"]
PJM:

If God is a just and fair God, then is He not also obligated to punish every sin not redeemed by asking for His forgiveness? If God cannot be in the presence of imperfection, and venial sin is still imperfection, then if we die before having our venial sins forgiven, then where can we go but Hell?
Suggesting that stealing a pack of gum and killing a 5 year old will both send someone to Hell if the sinner does not ask for forgiveness does not imply equal punishment for unequal sins if there can be varying levels of severity of punishment in Hell.

[/quote]

That's a reason why we believe in purgatory.

Also, I don't see how your passage from John shows that we must confess our sins to a Catholic priest... There is a place for confessing our sins to one another, no doubt. But that passage says nothing about a Priest or any other religious official. If we have to confess to a Catholic Priest, what happened to all the people who died between the resurrection and the establishment of the Catholic church? And you may say that the Catholic church was the original church established by Jesus so there was no time between. Even if we take that to be true (a step I'm not prepared to take), He certainly never defined just who can be a Priest...

He gave the power to the apostles, and they passed the power to forgive down through the ages through the laying on of hands

Acts 8:14-19
14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”


#27

There are plenty of instances in the Bible when someone is filled with the Holy Spirit and the Apostles don't lay their hands on them. The Apostles receiving it in the first place, for example. Why can't God give the Spirit Himself? In Romans 8 Paul says that they are living in the Spirit, but it does not make any mentioning of laying hands on them or anything like that... It seems that only the original Apostles did that sort of thing...


#28

If you want to know more about the catholic position on confession, here is a tract that can help catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins


#29

[quote="Jm102294, post:14, topic:311481"]
Tim:

That bit about lack of self control vs deliberate disobedience actually made some sense, but let's explore it a bit further...
There's a certain sin that I struggle with. I have committed this sin well over a thousand times. Recently, I have had a renewal in my walk with God, but still have not been able to stop committing this sin. Over the past few weeks, there have been several times when I know God is telling me not to do it, I do not want to give into it, but I do it anyways. Consciously. So basically, I do not have a desire to sin against God, but my desire to do this thing that I know is a sin is often greater than my desire to resist the temptation.

My question to you is this: Am I screwed?

[/quote]

No, you are not screwed. I have struggled with that same habitual sin. It simply takes time.

For me it was self love. It wasn't that I didn't love Jesus; my heart was on fire for Jesus, but it was that I loved myself more. What I mean is that my desire to please myself was greater than my desire to please God, or more correctly, my willingness to do my own will was greater than my willingness to do God's will.

At some point in my journey however, I was able to suffer for Christ. It was truly God's work, not my own. One day I sat there and suffered through the desire to sin, as the sin called me to act out, but I didn't do it. I actually cried "God, help me because I want to!" and I didn't do it. I was willing to suffer through the temptation because I desired to please God more than I desired to please myself. That was the moment that I loved God more than myself. I'll never forget it, and the strength came from God.

Two things were going on. One was humility.

Many people confuse humiliation with humility, but they are not the same. Humiliation is loss of dignity. Humility is knowing your proper place in the order of creation. I was not greater than God. In fact, I had no right to stand before God, and really deserved death for my sins. At the same time, I had tremendous dignity in that I was created in the image of God. But I was no better than anyone else. Knowing one's proper order in creation is humility, but that is not the same thing as humiliation.

The other thing going on was grace. Grace is an action of the holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was active in my life, slowly sanctifying my soul, slowly giving me strength to resist temptation. Eventually I was able to cooperate with grace to the point where I was able to resist, able to suffer for Christ.

I have the advantage of the sacraments. I'm not trying to convert you or convince you. I'm simply telling you my faith, what I believe. I have the advantage of the sacraments, which are a means by which Christ communicates sanctifying grace to a believer. I am able to go to confession and recieve communion. These give me grace. Being cleansed of sin through the sacrament of confession, combined with my faith that it was so, put me in a state where my sins were actually wiped away - gone. This meant for me that the Holy Spirit could work in my life, sanctify my soul, and give me strenghth to resist and to increase in virtue. Grace is an action of the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not work instantaneously in most people. It took many months of saturating myself with things of God - prayer, reading scripture, Mass, Bible study and frequenting the sacraments. Sanctification takes time, lots of prayer, a sincere desire to repent, and I have a great advantage in that I have access to the sacraments, especially confessin, so that my sins are wiped away and the Holy Spirit can act in my life and on my soul.

No, you are not screwed. Paul had a "thorn in his side" which he begged God to take away, and complained of the same thing, a desire to be righteous but a body that would not cooperate. Yet at the end of his life, Paul had great confidence in his salvation.

Addiction reduces cuplability, reduces the blame we bear. We can know that a certain sin is wrong but addicts can't help themselves. I've been addicted to things all my life. If we addicts could stop on our own, we would have done so long ago. To a lesser or greater extent, we bear less blame due to the addiction.

Keep up what you are doing. Surround yourself with scripture, go to church daily if yours is open daily, prayer, lots of prayer, wear a cross around your neck to remind yourself of God. Hang out with Christians. Whatever it takes. Only make Jesus the center of your life. Saturate your life with God until people think you are crazy and you start to loose your friends. Then you will be on the right track.

-Tim-


#30

[quote="Jm102294, post:27, topic:311481"]
There are plenty of instances in the Bible when someone is filled with the Holy Spirit and the Apostles don't lay their hands on them. The Apostles receiving it in the first place, for example. Why can't God give the Spirit Himself? In Romans 8 Paul says that they are living in the Spirit, but it does not make any mentioning of laying hands on them or anything like that... It seems that only the original Apostles did that sort of thing...

[/quote]

Spirit comes from the latin word Spiritus which means breath. In John's Gospel, Jesus gave the holy Spirit to the disciples by breathing on them.

**And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:22-23)

The Holy Spiritus is the life giving breath of God.

**the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7)

Again, I'm not trying to convert. I'm just sharing my faith. We Catholics testify to this every time we worship. We say the Creed at Mass and it contains this line:

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life.

Jesus tells us that his very words are his life giving breath, the spirit of God.

**It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (John 6:63)

In our faith, grace is an action of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the life giving breath of God. God can give the grace of the Holy Spirit to people, but in our faith, he gave the authority to do so to Apostles with the intention of handing that authority down through the ages. God is not bound to doing it through humans, but we believe that God's intent was that it be done through people. God chose to become a person himself to save us. Even our salvation on the cross was done through a person. God can perform miracles, but God prefers to act through people. We believe that he gave us Apostles and a Church for that very reason.

***Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God **that is within you through the laying on of my hands. (1 Timothy 1:6 RSV)

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.(1 Timothy 4:14 NAB)*

-Tim-


#31

=Jm

Hi JM,
This Part 1 of my reply

Asking for forgiveness is certainly a part of the necessary process God Ordains in both the OT and the NT. Lev. 5 and 6; Jn. 20: 21-23.

Venial sins for us Catholics are forgiven at every Mass. And a good and sincere "Act of Contrition" can too remove them. It's the Mortal Sins which is clearly Biblical even in the KJ Bible that only the very foolish make light of, or pretend don't exist

RSV bible: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

*KJV 16-17 *“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask , and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

[quote]If God is a JUST & FAIR God, then is He not also obligated to punish every sin not redeemed by asking for His forgiveness?

Yes but not identically; that is being “unfair”. A Just God can’t punish a kid stealing a candy bar the exact same way as a person supporting abortion. God gives to man alone the ability to know the difference & to freely choose the difference between right & wrong. Only man has a mind, intellect and FREEWILL attached to our Souls. God must allow us to use them; and then judge us according to our own choices.** Rom. 2:6 **“Who will render to every man according to his works.”

If God cannot be in the presence of imperfection, and venial sin is still imperfection, then if we die before having our venial sins forgiven, then where can we go but Hell?

Hello Purgatory! Rev. 21:27, Mt. 5:26

I don't see how your passage from John shows that we must confess our sins to a Catholic priest.

Because your not using the entire bible and connecting the precise and connecting teachings. Use this site to look up in the sequence given each of the following text. http://www.drbo.org/ LOOK 4 and take note that each is Jesus and His Apostles only and exclusively.

Mt.10:1-8 [note the interchangeable disciple=apostles]
Mt. 16:15-19
Mt.18:18 expanded to all Apostles
Jn.14:16-17 filled in Jn.20:21-22
John 20:19-23*
Jn.17: 15-19
Mt. 28:16, 18-20

2 things are clear
1. Jesus commands, protects, and warrants only the apostles and through them by absolute necessity the CC in mandating “to the entire world“ Mt. 28: 19-20. [Every bible reference to “church” means the CC as no other church even existed in the entire world for 900+ years]

  1. God literally GIVES to the Apostles alone His very Powers and Authority as God:

*Jn.15:16
Mt.28:18
Jn.17:18-19
Jn.20:21 *

*Lev. 5:5 *“When a man is guilty in any of these [sins] , he shall confess the sin he has committed,” [to a PRIEST]

Romans 10: 9 - 10 **“because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [conditionally] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, **and he confesses with his lips and so is saved”

**End of part 1

Please see the 2nd continued reply**

God Bless,
pat/PJM
[/quote]


#32

My friend; without bias reread this carefully and prayerfully

Part II of reply

John 20:18-23 Mary Magdalen cometh, and tell the disciples: SEE Mt. 10:2*- 5
”disciple and Apostle” used interchangeably] I have seen the Lord, and these things he said to me. Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them The Apostles see v 24] his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. ..Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. *See Jn 14:16-17] [v23] Whose sins you [SINGULAR] shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you [SINGULAR] shall retain, they are retained.” *

Jesus is clear; precise and specific giving to the Apostles alone; following OT Traditional Practice of sin-forgiveness but now makes it PERFECT. Lev. 5 and 6

Romans 13: 1-4 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you [SINGULAR] overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ephesians 4:5 " One Lord, one faith, one baptism." MEANS
1 God

Only that 1 Gods set of Faith teachings and beliefs. A Perfect God cannot hold contradictory views on the same issue

And 1 baptism in water with the HS.

There is a place for confessing our sins to one another, no doubt. But that passage says nothing about a Priest or any other religious official.

See the evidence in part 1 of my reply. NOTE in verse 23 is limited to “YOU” [SINGULAR].

If we have to confess to a Catholic Priest, what happened to all the people who died between the resurrection and the establishment of the Catholic church?

The Apostles and those Ordained by them were Catholic Bishops & Priest. And then NOTE how this teaching from the Catholic Catechism applies to them.

846 “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. End Quote

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. End Quote.

Plus do not overlook the of Baptism and its complete removal of ALL sins and the Temporal punishment due to them UP TO the point of being Baptized. Baptism of Desire and or Blood would account for lack of normal form.

Clearly the Power and the mandate is to ONLY the Apostles and through them the CC. AND it requires everyone’s obedience!

And you may say that the Catholic church was the original church established by Jesus so there was no time between. Even if we take that to be true (a step I'm not prepared to take), He certainly never defined just who can be a Priest

**Sure He did. See the references on part 1 & Jn.15:16 **You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you

Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

Mt. 15:16-19 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven[/COLOR]. [And I [GOD] say to thee[YOU ALONE}: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock [YOU] I [GOD] will build my church,[SINGULAR] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I [GOD] will give to thee[YOU ALONE PETER] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

Continud Blesings,
pat/PJM


#33

=Jm102294;10245962]Thank you, ahs.

So evaluate this conclusion then:

The only sin that actually dooms you for sure is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is attributing the works of the Spirit to Satan because then you are in a state of permanent rejection of Christ. A sin which is consciously committed is not a mortal sin unless it is committed for the sake of sinning, or committed specifically because it is a sin.
In other words, If I take a cookie because I know it will make my parents mad, that is very different from me taking a cookie because I really want a cookie, despite my knowledge that it will make my parents mad.

My FRIEND,:)

Your wrong here:o

Just as the 10 Commandments are catagories of sins; not the ONLY 10; so so what you culled in an example of One Mortal sin; NOT the only ones. Read Mt. chapters 5 and 6 for evidence.

Mt. 5:21-22 "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. But I [God] say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire"

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

This not a new Teaching. It follows OT Tradition and practices; BUT perfects and completes the action.

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

God Bless you,
One God founded Only One Church Mt. 16:15-19; and can have Only One set of faith beliefs. Jesus Knew with only ONE source for His truth; we couldn't get it wrong.;)

pat/PJM


#34

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