1 Peter 2:9) says Christians are a royal priesthood,why do we need to ordain priest?


#21

[quote=Giver]Yes the apostles were priest and so are all Christians. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to those he chooses. The Holy Spirit chooses apostles, prophets, etc. There are powers that come with these gifts. So to know who today’s apostles are we should be looking for people to whom the Holy Spirit has given the gifts.

(1 Corinthians 4:19) “but I will be visiting you soon, the Lord willing, and then I shall want to know not what these self-important people have to say, but what they can do, since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power.”

What power have any of the bishops ever demonstrated? I have met several bishops, and have never heard tell that any of them walked in any spiritual power.

Now tell me if the Holy Spirit chooses Catholic priest, then those priest must have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. If someone has the Holy Spirit how could they commit the terrible sins that some have and are committing? If they didn’t have the Holy Spirit, how then did they get chosen?
[/quote]

Robert,
Once again you know these answers. The Wheat and the chaff are to co-exist. How did Judas go about healing and expelling demons and then lose it all. It’s his own free will.

You say priests and bishops have no power?!?!? They have more power than you and I do in their fingertips. They have the power to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus!!! They have the power to forgive sins.

Yes, they are doing this through Jesus Christ, or more accurately, Jesus is doing it through them, but I don’t see any of the laiety with this ability.

Notworthy


#22

WOW. . .I am stunned that this qualifies as a viable arguement for you!

Perhaps a refresher course in Scripture and the early Church will help you understand better what sort of power/responsiblity is given to those who hold the office of bishop.

St. Paul asks: “But how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe unless they have heard of him? And how can they hear unless there is someone to preach? And how can men preach unless they are sent?” (Rom. 10:14-15). We know that the faith comes to us through “many witnesses” (1 Tim. 2:2). The faith is then “handed on to trustworthy men who will be able to teach others.” We know that Christ, himself, personally chose and sent the first teachers and preachers: “Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority to expel unclean sprits and to cure sickness and disease of every kind. . .Jesus sent these men on mission as the Twelve” (Matt. 10:1-5). These men, in turn, passed on the faith and sent, by their authority, other men (see Acts).

Jesus ordained the Twelve as the first leaders in the Church to sit upon “twelve thrones” (Matt. 19:28, Lk. 22:30) in judgment and leadership. This is the beginning of the Church’s first degree of Holy Orders: the episcopate. We see the first mention of this office in Act 1:20 when St. Peter stands up among the apostles after Judas’ suicide and says, “’May another take his office.’” The Greek term used here for “office” is “episkopos” which translates “bishopric.” This is a specific office which refers to the successors of the apostles. The episcopacy includes the bishops of the Church which can trace their succession from the Apostles. We see St. Paul addressing the bishops (episkopoi) and deacons (diakonoi) in his letter to the Philippians (Phillip. 1:1). This refers to the early Church structure that continues today to include bishops as overseers of God’s holy ones and deacons as their servant assistants. In the early church (as well as today), it was councils of bishops, in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), who made universal statements for the Church.

And the early Church, too, is a wonderful witness to Scripture:

Through the Bible, we know that Jesus chose certain men to be his special ministers and we know that those men ordained, in His name, other men to serve and pass on the faith of the apostles. History, too, is a strong witness to what the Church teaches. St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in 110 AD (just 80 years after Jesus), testifies in his letters to the early Church: “For Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the will of the Father, just as the bishops, who have been appointed throughout the world, are the will of Jesus Christ. It is fitting, therefore, that you should live in harmony with the will of the bishop” (to the Ephesians). He also writes: “Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God and with the presbyters in the place of the council of Apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ” (to the Magnesians). Further: “In like manner let everyone respect the deacon as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of Apostles. Without these, it cannot be called Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson, and his meekness is his strength” (to the Trallians). And so, just 80 years after Jesus founds His Church, we see in the writings of this early Church father that the Church recognized the three-fold sacramental institution of “Holy Orders” as the leadership order in the church.

And so what about all these weak bishops you’ve come to know? What about all these priests with terrible sins? Our answer lies in Scripture. Christ chose Judas as one the twelve. His ways are far above our ways. We may never agree or understand why some men are called out to serve. We are not their judges. We, as Christians, know that God in his infinite power and wisdom makes all things work for HIS glory, not our understanding.


#23

[quote=Giver]Yes the apostles were priest and so are all Christians. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to those he chooses. The Holy Spirit chooses apostles, prophets, etc. There are powers that come with these gifts. So to know who today’s apostles are we should be looking for people to whom the Holy Spirit has given the gifts.

[/quote]

I guess I’m doing this in reverse, since this is the first part of your post. . .

You really need to do some good Scriptural research on the priesthood and what it means. Obvioiusly, you have the impression that because we are all called to lives of priestly sacrifice as Christians that means there is no need for ministerial priests. I think an honest and exhaustive look at Scripture will prove otherwise.

Yes, Christians (the new Israel) are priests, just as the all the Israelites were called a royal priesthood. This fact does not diminish or negate the fact that there has always been a ministerial priesthood.

And, Scripturallly speaking, our perception of “the gifts” is not an indication of true power. We are all generous distributors of God’s gifts and God alone chooses and knows how his power and grace is measured out (1 Pet 4:10). We do not stand in judgement of his apostles!


#24

OK, Robert, one more time.

Per Jimmy Akin:
In both Old and New Testaments, there are three ranks of priests, which are commonly referred to as the high priests, the ministerial priests, and the universal priests.

At the time of the Exodus the high priest was Aaron (Ex. 31:30), the ministerial priests were his four sons (Ex. 28:21; the sons were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar, the first two of which were killed for abusing their priestly duties), and the universal priests were the people of Israel as a whole (Exodus 19:6).

In any event, the three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a high priest, ministerial priests, and universal priests. In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1), the ministerial priests are Christ's ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16), and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9).

So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see *Catechism of the Catholic Church* 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24).

Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament.

This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term priest is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for elderpresbuteros – as any dictionary will confirm. This is any some Old Catholic translations render the word as priests where Protestant Bibles have elder. For example, in the Douay-Rheims Bible (the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version) we read:

For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee” (Titus 1:5).

Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him” (James 5:14-15).

I could go on, Giver, if you wish to know more.

Notworthy


#25

[quote=Giver](1 Peter 2:9) “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a people set apart to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.”
[/quote]

This isn’t the first time that God has called his people to be a royal priesthood, a holy nation. God also did so to ancient Hebrews.

“’…Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Exodus 19:5-6

Now, the question is this-- God wanted his people to be a kingdom of priests since way before Christ and before the Law. Does this correspond to the Protestant interpretation of the royal priesthood as to everyone having equal power and authority?

From Revelation 1:5-6:

5 …To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father, to him be glory and power forever (and ever). Amen.

Where you see a contradiction between God calling certain people to share in His priesthood and the way the Christian people form a royal priesthood there is none. Priesthood is what we’re going to have to explore.

First, we need to look at Leviticus, 7:11-21. Here we have regulations set down by God for offering sacrifice. Only in the peace offering can the giver of the victim partake of the sacrificial meal. Usually only members of the priestly family can eat sacrificial offerings.

Leviticus 22:10-13

10 "Neither a lay person nor a priest’s tenant or hired servant may eat of any sacred offering. 11 But a slave whom a priest acquires by purchase or who is born in his house may eat of his food. 12 A priest’s daughter who is married to a layman may not eat of the sacred contributions. 13 But if a priest’s daughter is widowed or divorced and, having no children, returns to her father’s house, she may then eat of her father’s food as in her youth. No layman, however, may eat of it.

Now, when it came to be that a man of the priestly clan was disqualified from the exercise of the priesthood (offering sacrifices), he could still partake in the sacrificial offering.

Leviticus 21: 21-23

21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any such defect may draw near to offer up the oblations of the LORD; on account of his defect he may not draw near to offer up the food of his God. 22 He may, however, partake of the food of his God: of what is most sacred as well as of what is sacred. 23 Only, he may not approach the veil nor go up to the altar on account of his defect; he shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is I, the LORD, who make them sacred."

This is a distinction between the priestly ministry and the dignity of the priestly clan. Thus in Christ’s Church, priests are set aside to carry out sacred functions (especially the Eucharist, or as Lutherans term it, the Lord’s Supper). Priests also are official preachers of the Church. Everyone else, all the members, form a priestly people because they are called to unite themselves to Christ’s sacrifice by partaking of the Body of the Lord.

Hence, 1 Peter 2:9

9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light

With 1 Cor 11:26

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

Remember, of course that baptism gives us entrance, quite explicitly, to the altar.
Heb 10:22

let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water

Heb 13:10

10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.

(“Serve the tent,” in the RSV translation i.e., the old covenant priests.)
In the Old Testament, priests were called from among Aaron’s descendants who were a priestly clan within God’s people. NT priests are chosen from among baptized people, who are children of God, brothers of Jesus, and members of God’s family. The members of God’s Church form a race of priests. The ministerial priesthood is a special calling.


#26

GIVER. Are you and the voice in your head too scared to respond to post #9. Why do you keep moving threads to avoid answering?


#27

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