[quote="ivory, post:1, topic:267385"]
A friend of mine is an atheist who becomes very belligerent whenever anything tangentially related to religion is mentioned (or when my very Catholic girlfriend joins the conversation). One topic that he very smugly seems to enjoy mentioning is the language of 1 Timothy 2:12, which of course states:
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet."
I'm assuming he thinks this verse is more "evidence" of the Bible being a horrible, backwards, sexist, racist, and homophobic work. More ammo for his anti-theism.
The NT isn't racist, but it is mildly sexist. The end of the world is prophesied to come about by a woman taking food/drink without permission based on love and giving it to a man. eg: The image is fulfilled by a woman priest giving the Eucharist to someone without permission just like Eve did...
St. Paul, I think, understands the prophecy of Genesis that way and therefore is doing his part to obey God's law and encourage others to obey it. Jesus said: Whoever teaches others to break the least of the commandments, will be least in God's Kingdom.
I'm sure the verse in actual context doesn't endorse sexism, but as a relatively new Catholic (in the making), I can't quite understand what it's trying to say. What does this verse really say?
Thanks for your time.
It is simply acknowledging the prophecy about the end of the world. The woman who is angry at her husband will rise up and destroy the house.
The culture which let's a perverse woman rise to power will also be destroyed by her. Jesus, the man & son of man, can't destroy the church; but a certain kind of woman has the potency to destroy.
Notice this passage: (Douay)
Genes 49:24 His bow rested upon the strong, and the bands of his arms and his hands were loosed, by the hands of the mighty one of Jacob: thence he came forth a pastor, the stone of Israel.
Genes 49:25 The God of thy father shall be thy helper, and the Almighty shall bless thee with the blessings of heaven above, with the blessings of the deep that lieth beneath, with the blessings of the breasts and of the womb.
Genes 49:26 The blessings of thy father are strengthened with the blessings of his fathers: until the desire of the everlasting hills should come: may they be upon the head of Joseph, and upon the crown of the Nazarite among his brethren.
Now compare it to this:
Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through places without water, seeking rest: and not finding, he saith: I will return into my house whence I came out.
Luke 11:25 And when he is come, he findeth it swept and garnished.
Luke 11:26 Then he goeth and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself: and entering in they dwell there. And the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee and the paps that gave thee suck.
Luke 11:28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it.
Jesus' topic is the udder destruction of a man; it is the same topic, for instance, as the prophecy about the "end of the world", the destruction of the temple; and it is also referring back to the "logic" of God that is found in Genesis. Genesis is a Law by examples; not by pure commands.
Notice how this woman views other women; "Breasts, womb", she talks like a fertility machine, a thing for making babies. But she never actually mentions who's anatomy she is talking about (unless it is Jesus') .... (That's left to the imagination).
It is not all kinds of women that destroy, but a particular seductive kind tries to destroy Jesus' Church and the powerful and wicked indiscriminately.
St. Paul's remarks are not generally sexist -- but they are anti- uncontrolled "wild" sex.
As Archbishop, Leveda kept a priest, a "Fr. Joe Jacoberger"(sp?) on staff at the Cathedral in Portland, Oregon for some time, The problem that happened there is indicative of the problem St. Paul is attempting to guard against -- Fr. Joe's sensitivity toward women led him to be seduced by one, and leave off of the church's shepherding.
If she would do that, then what ethics could she possibly Teach in church?
Notice also: Jesus does not directly condemn this woman, but at the same time he denies that all breasts and wombs he touches are blessed. She tried to get him to affirm an unconditional blessing as an interpretation of scripture.
She is therefore making a pornographic picture to Jesus' ears; eg: pornography leads one to focus more and more exclusively on body parts but not the person and the relationship and their commitment to a COMMON law. Notice, the woman talks over the top of Jesus, remarking this "blessing" in the middle of hearing him talk about the "unclean spirit" and "Beelzebub".
It's as if she is saying ... oh, you're soooo ideal.... what breasts wouldn't be blessed by your sucking, and what womb wouldn't enjoy supporting you down there?
(IT's TERRIBLY RUDE).