10 Commandments-Graven images


#1

Can anyone tell me why there are different versions of the 10 commandments ie: Graven Images


#2

It’s simple enough. Protestant translators split the first commandment to emphasize the graven image passage as a direct attack against supposed Catholic teaching about 3 dimensional artworks in the Church and their veneration, trying to make their ridiculous charge of idolatry stick. That’s why.


#3

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

Hope this helps

God Bless


#4

[quote=Roman_Catholic]catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

Hope this helps

God Bless
[/quote]

Wow! Not only did some change the true teachings they also changed the Commandments. Very interesting…


#5

[quote=Della]Protestant translators split the first commandment to emphasize the graven image passage as a direct attack against supposed Catholic teaching
[/quote]

Or they did it to match the Jewish reckoning of the Commandments.


#6

The Jews had ‘graven images’ of Cherubs not only in the Temple but actually on the Ark itself. I doubt they saw it quite the same way that Protestants do … :whistle:


#7

[quote=LilyM]The Jews had ‘graven images’ of Cherubs not only in the Temple but actually on the Ark itself. I doubt they saw it quite the same way that Protestants do … :whistle:
[/quote]

And Moses made a rod serpent…


#8

[quote=Timidity]Or they did it to match the Jewish reckoning of the Commandments.
[/quote]

Not exactly. The Jews recon the 1st and 2nd Commandments differently than Protestants. In Judaism:

1st Commandment:

I am the Lord thy God who have brought thee out of the house of bondage.

2nd Commandment:

Thou shalt have no other gods besides me.


#9

Ahh! Someone here in this forum had a great site that compared the Jewish breakdown with Catholic and Protestant, all side by side. Very easy to compare and see the differences. I just spent a bunch of time looking for it but could not find it and I failed to bookmark it.

Maybe I’ll PM Eden. She always seems to be able to find things on the web.

Sorry,
Maria


#10

There are two versions of the ten commandments (Decalogue) given in the Bible. The first is contained in Exodus 20, and the second in Deuteronomy 5. All churches have preferred to use the version given in Exodus. According to Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13, God wrote upon the tablets “ten commandments,” and so Exodus 20:2-17 is to be divided into ten parts; but this division is done differently by different writers. The oldest method, found in the writings of Philo and Josephus (first century), takes verse 3 as the first commandment, verses 4 through 6 as the second, and so forth. This is called the Philonic division, and it was adopted by the Greek Church and by Protestants (except Lutherans). Later the Jewish Talmud (third century) treated the preface in verses 1 and 2 as the first of ten “sayings” and combined verses 3-6 as the second saying. This is called the Talmudic division, and was adopted by all Jews. In the fifth century Saint Augustine listed the ten commandments by beginning with the Talmudic second saying as the first commandment; and, following the word order of Deuteronomy 5:21, making the ninth commandment a prohibition of the coveting of a neighbor’s wife, and the tenth a prohibition of coveting his house and other property. This is known as the Augustinian division. (1) The Roman Catholic church accepted Augustine’s method, and Luther also continued in this tradition with one modification: he preferred to follow the word order of Exodus 20, and so his ninth commandment became a prohibition against coveting the house and his tenth prohibited coveting the wife, slaves, and animals. Lutherans continue to follow this method.

bible-researcher.com/decalogue.html

Douay-Rheims Bible

Deuteronomy 5:

6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight. 8 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

So, do Catholics worship images to the point that those images replace God? That is a matter of the heart that each Catholic needs to answer for themselves. Since I am NOT the Holy Spirit, it is NOT my place to search your hearts. But we all are to examine our hearts ( I Cor 11:28 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 ).

1 Corinthians 2:10
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Romans 8:26-28 (New International Version)
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

John 16:8-9 (New International Version)
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;


#11

[quote=Daniel Marsh]So, do Catholics worship images to the point that those images replace God? That is a matter of the heart that each Catholic needs to answer for themselves. Since I am NOT the Holy Spirit, it is NOT my place to search your hearts. But we all are to examine our hearts ( I Cor 11:28 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 ).

[/quote]

Catholics do not worship images at all.

God Bless,
Maria


#12

[quote=Daniel Marsh] Since I am NOT the Holy Spirit, it is NOT my place to search your hearts.
[/quote]

AMEN!!!


#13

[quote=MariaG]Catholics do not worship images at all.

God Bless,
Maria
[/quote]

so what are those statues and paintings of saints doing in the church? why do we kneel and pray infront of them?


#14

[quote=mesher]so what are those statues and paintings of saints doing in the church? why do we kneel and pray infront of them?
[/quote]

Why do you kneel in front of your bed to pray, kneel at an altar call, bow your head with the Bible in your lap? Do you worship your bed, an altar, your Bible?


#15

Images and Statues

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

www.scripturecatholic.com


#16

Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 24:52 - Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God. 2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.

www.scripturecatholic.com


#17

[quote=mesher]so what are those statues and paintings of saints doing in the church? why do we kneel and pray infront of them?
[/quote]

Go read about the whole iconoclast dispute. No Catholic believes the statues/icons are gods, they are not worshipped and they are not mistaken for the person/saint represented, etc. The Catholic understanding on graven images, etc., is that it’s a prohibition on idolatry. Catholics worship God alone. Catholics honor (venerate) saints. No statue or picture is worshipped or treated as an idol. Do non-Catholics who pray before a cross worship the cross?

If you take the prohibition literally you have the problems mentioned with the chrubs, snakes and all those pictures you have of your children, parents and friends. (not to mention TV, movies, etc.)

Catholics and orthodox have a long standing understanding of the prohibition.


#18

[quote=mesher]so what are those statues and paintings of saints doing in the church? why do we kneel and pray infront of them?
[/quote]

Because just as pictures of loved ones bring to mind different events in our lives, so do pictures of Christ and the Saints.

For example.

When I want to remember a great vacation I took with my family, I pull out a photo album and look at the pictures. It can remind of things I had not thought of for awhile.

OR:

For me, when I want to pray to God to be a better and obedient servant, I frequently do so in front of a Mary Statue. Mary is the perfect example of saying Yes to God. By kneeling and praying to God in front of a Statue of the Blessed Virgin, it helps me to focus my thoughts on what is possible when one is completely obedient to God.

God Bless,
Marai


#19

[quote=mesher]so what are those statues and paintings of saints doing in the church? why do we kneel and pray infront of them?
[/quote]

My nephew once told me that he was uncomfortable with the way Mary was venerated at his church. He said that he didn’t like kissing her image as she passed by, as they do in many Catholic churches. He said it felt like he was worshiping an image.

My sister, his mother, passed away 35 years ago. I asked him if he ever picked up a picture of his mother and kissed it. He said yes. I said that without question he kissed the glass on the frame and the picture. But what he was embracing was her memory. He understood completely and I could see the revelation on his face.

That it is exactly the same action we undertake when we embrace any image in our church. For instance, when I kiss the crucifix on my rosary, it is an expression of my love for Jesus, not an emotional bonding with the little piece of metal shaped into a cross that I am undertaking.

Hope that helps,
Subrosa


#20

to those who kneel, kiss, hug statues and images:

Deut 5:8-10
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Jeremiah 2:27
They say to wood, 'You are my father,'
and to stone, 'You gave me birth.'
They have turned their backs to me
and not their faces;
yet when they are in trouble, they say,
‘Come and save us!’

Habakuk 2:18-19
**18 "Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it?
Or an image that teaches lies?
For he who makes it trusts in his own creation;
he makes idols that cannot speak.

19 Woe to him who says to wood, 'Come to life!'
Or to lifeless stone, 'Wake up!'
Can it give guidance?
It is covered with gold and silver;
there is no breath in it.**

Psalms 95:6
Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

John 4:23-24
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

don’t equate things we do for worship what we do to show love to our love ones. in the first place there is no exact picture of jesus or mary or saints, you might be kissing the face of some models used by the painters.

is the bible not enough picture of jesus?

peace…


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