11-30 Mass Readings / Comments (OSAS / fear of God)

November 30, 2010
Feast of Saint Andrew, Apostle

*** 11-30 Mass Readings / Comments (OSAS / fear of God)***

Reading 1

Rom 10:9-18

Brothers and Sisters:
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved.

For one believes with the heart and so is justified,
and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
The Scripture says,
No one who believes in him will be put to shame.
There is no distinction between Jew and Greek;
the same Lord is Lord of all,
enriching all who call upon him.
For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed?
And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone to preach?
And how can people preach unless they are sent?
As it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news!
But not everyone has heeded the good news;
for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?
Thus faith comes from what is heard,
and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
But I ask, did they not hear?
Certainly they did; for
Their voice has gone forth to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.

Ps 19:8, 9, 10, 11Responsorial PsalmR. (10)

The judgments of the Lord are true, and all of them are just.

R. (John 6:63) Your words, Lord, are Spirit and life.
The law of the LORD is perfect,
refreshing the soul;
The decree of the LORD is trustworthy,
giving wisdom to the simple.
R. The judgments of the Lord are true, and all of them are just.

R. Your words, Lord, are Spirit and life.
The precepts of the LORD are right,
rejoicing the heart;
The command of the LORD is clear,
enlightening the eye.
R. The judgments of the Lord are true, and all of them are just.
or:
R. Your words, Lord, are Spirit and life.
The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever;

The ordinances of the LORD are true,
all of them just.
R. The judgments of the Lord are true, and all of them are just.
or:
R. Your words, Lord, are Spirit and life.
They are more precious than gold,
than a heap of purest gold;
Sweeter also than syrup
or honey from the comb.
R. The judgments of the Lord are true, and all of them are just.
or:
R. Your words, Lord, are Spirit and life.

Mt 4:18-22Gospel

As Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers,
Simon who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew,
casting a net into the sea; they were fishermen.
He said to them,
***“Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men.”***At once they left their nets and followed him.
He walked along from there and saw two other brothers,
James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John.
They were in a boat, with their father Zebedee, mending their nets.
He called them, and immediately they left their boat and their father
and followed him.

__

Some who claim OSAS like this first psg & think it proves their point… but nowhere in this or any other psg does it say that once saved, you can never lose your salvation. Elsewhere, when someone asks Jesus what he must do to be saved, He says to obey the commandments… then, if he really wants to be perfect (not have to go through Purgatory???) he should give up all his possessions to the poor & follow Him…

I doubt Jesus expects us all to become bums living under a bridge :eek::smiley:

but then again… hmmm… never know… :D:eek::smiley:

but ppl really are too attached to their stuff… and if you miss Heaven because you are attached to your things… guess those things aren’t so valuable as they look/seem…

anyhow… giving up everything you have and following Jesus doesn’t sound too much like OSAS to me…

Where people get that concept is beyond me… :confused::confused:

Of course this isn’t the only passage protestants use to support this doctrine. They’ve flowered the doctrine out using pretty much the whole of scripture to support their thesis. But from this passage, they take Paul’s words, “will be saved” as an imperative statement. As a guarantee if you will.

Now they’ll point to 1 John 2:19 where he says, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” They refer to this passage in order to state that anyone has fallen away, very simply, was a fake to begin with. They were never a true Christian.

well, i’ve been through that born again thing (as they call it) & NO ONE call tell me i didn’t go through that…

& yet i committed many big sins after that… I did so out of ignorance (& cuz i was influenced by an OSASer & didn’t know my faith! :eek::mad::()

now i am paying for those sins, even after all the expiation i have already done… sin has long lasting consequneces in the phyiscal realm as well as the spiritual as well as the afterlife…

again, if anyone tells me he believes in OSAS, i automatically know one thing about him:

he has NOT read the Bible!! (despite what he may claim to the contrary)

uh… not to mention that he hasn’t learned much from his experiences w/ sin…

No one who is a serious adherent of the reformed persuasion would dispute your words that sin has both physical and spiritual consequences, many of them long-lasting and devastating. But the core difference is that they believe expiation and satisfaction has already been made, at Calvary, once and for all time for those who are truly in Christ and therefore their sins are washed away. That means that because of Christ, they will not be damned. They would not say that it negates the very real consequences of sin in this life. Nor would they say that it is a license to sin. There are clear distinctions between a repentant sinner saved by the Gospel and an unrepentant “Christian” with no fruits of the spirit at all.

I wouldn’t say they’ve not read their Bible. They are very serious Bible readers by virtue of the core doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The best you could say is that they’ve severely misinterpreted the scriptures. It is a complicated issue. If their doctrine is as transparent as you contend it is, I highly doubt it would have such a pervasive following.

I struggle with this to be perfectly honest with you. I was a very serious student of Calvin. Attended a reformed seminary that adhered to the idea that “no doctor or lawyer studying at Harvard should study harder than a minister of the gospel” and was active in the ministry.

I told both my priest and my RCIA director that in 2,000 years of Christianity every topic has become disputed. How can I possibly be able to find truth in all the arguments? I am simply not smart enough to do it. Ultimately I am trusting in the unity of the faith as demonstrated by the Church throughout the ages. And may God grant me mercy for any misconception that I have about him.

i have read the whole Bible … the NT several times and am reading through it again… OSAS is a totally unbiblical tenet that the devil wants ppl to believe so they end up in Hell or long stays in Purg…

Even if i hadn’t read the Bible… I have also been attending daily Mass as often as possible for many years… been Catholic all my life, but was o/side the Church for… TOO LONG when young :frowning:

so i also have that greatest of all teachers (besides the Church, that is): Experience!!!

Jesus has shown me (while in His Presence in the Church)… the true condition of my soul and the true “take” on my life (circumstances, relationships)… My experiences There… (etc) confirm the psgs in the bible about how difficult it is to get into Heaven… even when you DO attempt to do everything Jesus said… which, when you really try to do… is much harder than it sounds…

i 1st read the NT when i was a teenager & i didn’t understand a lot of what i read but that didn’t bother me back then cuz i focused on the awesome miracles Jesus did & … well, i was madly in love w/ Jesus and so was probably somewhat… uh… “blinded”?? to the passages that didn’t speak of all his… wonderful deeds… In other words, i didn’t seem to absorb those psgs about how its difficult to make it to Heaven and “few find the way” to eternal life… But now, i am FAR from being a teen… & have been through a LOT Of “interesting” things…

My experience / knowledge tells me in no uncertain terms that it is NOT easy for adults to get into Heaven…

Jesus said if your foot causes you 2 stumble, cut it off…

it seems to me that not many people “cut off” anything… give up anything that causes them to sin, whether its a girlfrend/ boyfriend… a job where one is doing something illegal… you name it…

True, i don’t see much cuz i isolate these days… But one reason i isolate is cuz i dont want to be around certain unkosher influences… I don’t go to movies for obvious reasons… Heck, my mind is “polluted” enough despite not watching TV or movies… just from being human…!!! :eek:

from a poster called benedict:

“this is the problem when you do not have a governing authority set up by Christ. you pick and choose the verses that prove what you believe, and discount or explain away the ones that do not back you up. osas is a great example of this. its one of those subjects, where yu have to ignore many passages, and take out of context many more, to arrive at this particular doctrine. taking the bible and tradition as a whole, as the Catholic Church does, osas does not stand up to the scrutiny of either.” peace

Experiences, like opinions, are like butt-holes in that everybody has one. So where does that leave us? :shrug:

I’m not debating with you about the veracity of the OSAS doctrine, but rather that just as protestants have misconceptions of what Catholicism is, so too Catholics have misconceptions of what protestantism is. And it is usually born out of a series of halve-truths about each other. And that is understandable considering that interpretations of scripture are like experiences, opinions, and butt-holes.

In short, I do not think you present your case very well at all. At the end of the day, we may agree about what Catholicism teaches, but I am not convinced at all that you know what you’re talking about when you speak of this doctrine.

Now I want to admit that the problem may simply be within me. Sheer humility demands me acknowledge that my worldview, that is my experience (uh-oh :stuck_out_tongue: ), has jaded the way I view this issue and your attitude toward it. Maybe as I grow in the Faith, under the pastoral leadership of the Holy See, I’ll see it from your perspective. :shrug:

That’s pretty much all I have to say. I’ve enjoyed this back and forth and look forward to speaking with you again sometime. Maybe we’ll see things more eye to eye next time.

i never said YOUR experiences were like ***holes… so why do you degrade me by saying this about me?

I’m not debating with you about the veracity of the OSAS doctrine, but rather that just as protestants have misconceptions of what Catholicism is, so too Catholics have misconceptions of what protestantism is.

well, maybe you shouldn’t have downgraded my experiences so much b4 even knowing what they are ? - and needless to say, even if i wrote about them extensively, ppl still wouldn;'t get the whole thing… only God does… kinda frustrating when one is trying to put forth important truths… & only because i know what its like not to have those truths…

one of those experiences you didn’t seem interested in… was th 1 of being IN Protestant churches… different ones, over a course of many years… & being around protestants… even outsdie the setting of church services…

interesting that i had several Protestant friends until i began studying the Catholic faith in depth (history of church, etc)… I got enthused about what i was learning & tried to share it with them… long story short: I lost all those “friends”… :rolleyes:but you know what they say, “with friends like that…”

anyway, the last part of your post is more friendly than the 1st… so i appreciate your attempt at communicating… but still… never ceases to amaze me how ppl on the forums seem to … uh… be rude (etc) cuz they know they are anonymous… not saying that describes you but whatever…

anyhow… congratulations on your spiritual journey to the Church:)

God bless… :slight_smile:

Hi Medic Mark-
Welcome to CAF and home to Rome!

I totally agree with what you posted. I have been involved in deep Scripture Study for years, am a daily mass goer. When studying certain Scriptures I sometimes get tempted to believe in OSAS myself. I don’t think it’s as easy as distracted makes it out to be.

I think distracted is being harsh on people who believe in OSAS. They are sincerely striving to follow Jesus with all their hearts. I don’t think most OSASers think they can believe in God with their lips and sinning is ok.

I told both my priest and my RCIA director that in 2,000 years of Christianity every topic has become disputed. How can I possibly be able to find truth in all the arguments? I am simply not smart enough to do it. Ultimately I am trusting in the unity of the faith as demonstrated by the Church throughout the ages.

My sentiments exactly. :amen: :blessyou:

And may God grant me mercy for any misconception that I have about him.

Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord! :bowdown::bowdown:

I can see how you would take that as me being rude, I apologize. What I was trying to convey was that experiences and opinions are more subjective rather than objective and therefore make for bad places to argue from. I downgraded my own experiences and opinions in the first sentence of my last post too, so don’t take it too harshly now. :slight_smile:

i appreciate that but you are incorrect to say that experiences are subjective… Yes, they ARE, but thye are also very objective as well since we are all created in the image of God… For example, if a person experiences (say) an abortion… she will go through what most women go thro afterwards: guilt, nightmares, regret, thinking God won’t forgive her, etc… (probably shouldn’t have given a controversial example but anyhow…)

objectively she has done something wrong… objectively, she has suffered the (objective) consequences…

subjectively, she feels that God cannot forgive her… but objectively, this is not true…

j

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