12th apostle (Revelation 21:14)

[LEFT][bibledrb]Revelation 21:14[/bibledrb]We all know the apostles: Simon (whom He named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor. Judas died, so there are only 11 apostles left. We all know them, but in Revelation 21:14 it says that all twelve apostle’s names will be on the foundations of the City.

My question is: who is the 12th apostle? Some may say Matthias, but why not Paul? Or why not the thousands apostles of Christ that have been from Christ until now? There are apostles even today, and all are the “apostles of Christ (the Lamb)” (I am talking about true apostles, because there are also liars, but all true apostle are apostles of Christ, the Lamb). An apostles is a person called by God to a certain job. This certain job is to go to the Gentiles (i.e., non-Christians) and preach the Gospel, that means to lay the foundation of Christ. After the apostles lays the foundation, the apostle continues his journey. For example: he goes to a village and preaches the good news (i.e., Gospel), and then gathers those who believed the Gospel in a group and forms a local body (i.e., church); he might spend a little more time naming the leader (i.e., pastor) and other people to certain fundamental positions; then he also gives some basic instructions (e.g.: baptism, laying of hands, etc.) but soon after that he goes to the next village or city, and lays another “foundation”. That is what an apostle does. There are many apostles today, or should I call them evangelists? (though I am not sure whether a modern evangelist meets the requirements of an old apostle or not). My point is that there have been lots of (true) apostles of the Lamb, and certainly more than 12 at a time and more than 12 in total. Whose name (or maybe names… who knows?) will be written on the 12th foundation?
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There are only 12!

Judas Iscariot was among them until his demise. Mathias was chosen to take his place…thereby, restoring The Twelve!

Paul was chosen AFTER Jesus rose from the dead! Of what significance that has, I have yet to uncover. It is often said that he was the ‘thirteenth’ Apostle, and certainly he counted himself as one and even laboured harder than ALL the others. Perhaps this proclamation offers an insight into whatever difference there may be between an Apostle called prior to Our Lord’s death, and one called after His resurrection. Mind you, Mathias can make the same claim about post-Crucifixion selection.

There are NO further Apostles than those named!

We aren’t called to be Apostles but be disciples. There is a difference. There were women disciples, but no women Apostles, for instance.

Apostolic Succession is to continue from one, not REPLACE one!

:cool:

Pope Paul VI call all those Baptized and Confirmed “Lay Apostles”, of course we are “sent” into the world, however not exactly equal to the Twelve. St. Paul could maybe be seen in this sense.

Who are the twelve apostles exactly? Is Judas Iscariot included?

Judas Iscariot was one of the original 12 and of course was replaced after he killed himself.

Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot as 12th apostle. There is no evidence in scripture, tradition or anywhere else to support your suggestion that Paul is being referred to in that passage.

Also, a Gentile is a non-Jew, not a non-Christian. There is a big difference as both Jews and Christians would affirm.

Paul was the first and most important evangelist to the Gentiles. Before he developed his theology, it was largely assumed that Christians must be Jews, or at least adhere to the ritual laws that Jews were bound by, eg, kosher dietary restrictions, circumcision, sabbath observance.

I disagree that there were no women Apostles. Mary Magdalene was an Apostle and is known, as the Apostle to the Apostles. I spoke with a priest about this and he confirmed that Mary was an Apostle. Perhaps it will be her name carved in the the foundation.

The question posed is, whose names are on the foundation? Is Judas included or not?

If it’s not Judas, it would be Mathias, as he succeeded Judas as bishop. But I am sure that the “12 Apostles” (this is why the Church defers such a title of Apostle to the 1st Century) here include Judas, meaning the original ones called. So what if Judas fell away? His see is still valid, and was transferred to Mathias. We have had plenty of bad popes and bishops but their ordination is valid.

Mary Magdalene was an “apostle” as we all are (as we are all “priests” to a degree – the Catechism goes into detail on these points so I won’t), but definitely not ordained clergy. Christ did not ordain women. He did not breath on her, impose hands on her.

I believe that priest who tried to make Mary Magdalene into some sort of a priestess is a New-Age heretic with an agenda. But I will hold back any judgment, lest the poster was confused by the priests true words.

“12” in Revelation is a heavenly reality.

We see a forshadowing of “12” in the Book of Judges. They were not magistrates but more like military rulers protecting the Hebrew people from harm. “12” is an apocalyptic number meaning “all of God’s people.” (12 tribes)

Matthew 12:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Did Jesus make a mathematical error or is he talking about thrones and not necessarily individuals?

Are the twelve thrones strictly heavenly thrones or are they on earth too?

This may be off topic using 12 in a different sense, but if 12 represents God’s people, and 10 represents the number of man, 12 X 10 = about 120, the number of people at Pentacost.

The Catholic Church has never held that view or taught that Mary Magdalene was an Apostle, one of the “Twelve”.

Curiously, Paul referred to himself as an apostle in 1 Cor 15:1-11. In it, he said that, after His resurrection, Jesus was seen “by Cephas, then by the Twelve…Next he was seen by James; then by all the apostles. Last of all he was seen by me, as one born out of the normal course. I am the least of the apostles…” He did not count himself as one of the Twelve, but did refer to himself as an apostle. Since Paul did say that Jesus was seen by the Twelve after Judas’ left, but before Mathias was added, I could still use some clarification from an authority? Did Paul misspeak?

Im no “authority” but it would seem that God used Paul as a special case for a special purpose. Remember that Paul was given “infused knowledge” of The Christ which was not taught to him by others. God chose one who was persecuting his Church to be converted to one who would be it’s staunchest defender and first of theologians. Given the gifts that God bestowed upon Paul and the success that he had I do not think that Paul mis-spoke this being the case.

I don’t have a big problem with what Paul said. It could be that his reference to the Twelve was not intending to say that he actually appeared to all twelve, but that he did appear to the assembly known as the Twelve, of which one may have been absent. For me, it is just a curiosity because of an apparent gap in logic and I would like someone better informed than me to enlighten me.

Peace back to you!

The apostle Paul was indeed the “apostle to the Gentiles.” James, Peter and John gave to Paul the “right hand of fellowship” and agreed to confine their ministry to Israel while Paul ministered to the Gentiles. think about this: As we come into the book of Acts the eleven make it their first order of business to bring their number back up to twelve. Our Lord had spent His last 40 days on earth teaching the 11 about the coming earthly kingdom. In light of Matthew 19:28 the apostles replaced Judas with Mattias. But when James was killed in Acts 12 they did not replace him.

I think the twelfth apostle will be Judas. He may have betrayed Jesus and killed himself, but he had been made a Priest, and once a priest always a Priest. WE cannot judge were Judas went after death.
However after the Assension of Jesus into Heaven, Peter decided that Jesus intended there would be 12 Apostles, and after praying, the Holy Spirit inspired him to draw lots to pick the 12th Apostle. The contenders were Mattais, and Joseph Barsabbas Justus. Straws were used and the one who got the shortest straw was Mattias. He was obviously a good Choice as he preached for 30 years in Judea, Cappedocia, and Egypt, on mortification and moral issues. Feast Day Feb 28th.
At this time the Church was only learning little by little, and there were no " Rules " in place yet - just the words Jesus had taught the Apostles so fresh in their memory, and being led by the Holy Spirit

I have always been taught this, so just my imput :slight_smile:

God Bless :slight_smile:

Sorry, I was merely stating that Mary Magdalene, like all of us, are Apostles of our Lord, and **she has been called **"*the Apostle to the Apostles". *I never said she was ordained, nor did I say she was one of the 12. I was told by a very devout Priest this, and he is no heretic. I believe you took what I said out of context. I DO NOT believe she was one of the 12, but she was an Apostle! Sorry for the confusion.

If Paul was not one of the 12 apostles, he wasn’t an apostle of Christ? In Revelation it says: the 12 apostles of the Lamb. Aren’t all true apostles apostles of Jesus? This is where I am confused.

“And he [Matthias] WAS NUMBERED WITH THE TWELVE.” God, The Holy Spirit so states that “Matthias was numbered with the twelve.” He will be the 12th when they sit on thrones [on earth] judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Our Lord spent His last 40 days on earth teaching the eleven about this earthly kingdom that has been promised to Israel by the O.T. prophets. Why do you think the eleven were so anxious to bring their number back up to twelve? And, why didn’t they replace James after he was killed in Acts 12? Whatta ya think?

I believe Paul was an apostle, but by his own pronouncement not one of the Twelve, but one who came later. I guess from what I have read here that there is reason to distinguish the Twelve from others, some of whom have also been referred to in some places as apostles. I am guessing that Judas lost his place among the Twelve and for this reason the remaining Eleven wanted to get that original group back up to 12. Again, I gather this from the posts preceding. This has satisfied my questions for the most part.

Hi All, Eph 2:19-20 states that the church is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, and Christ is the head.-------- That being said, only Christ, as the head, has the authority to choose apostles. He chose Paul to replace Judas. That’s corresponds with what Christ said in Mat 19:28 and Rev. 21:14.-------- Here’s something to think about that I could never figure out? Acts 1:24-26, states, that they prayed for God to reveal who is to be chosen. v24 then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; as a result he was added. My question is: did they rely on prayer or the lots? ED O.

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