2 Peter 3:3-4


#1

Im curious what this means and how we are supposed to take it?

**2 Peter 3:3-4, “Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” **


#2

Seems quite clear to me. People who don’t believe in the Second Coming will come. They are already here, I would say.


#3

The headings in my Douay-Rheims Challoner say the same as what Juris said. The passage is directed against “scoffers” who claim that the Second Coming of Christ will not happen. (Today, we would call them “full” or “heterodox” preterists.)


#4

Its pretty clear…people will say “where is this Jesus guy hahaha”. It is hard to decipher various events in the world, there’s always been false flags and people claiming they know the date they see the signs etc etc. But maybe with today’s social media we see scoffers more? Idk end times stuff really boggles my mind because there are so many interpretations for what everything could mean.


#5

Is this not speaking about those folks who say “things are like they have always been”, people have ALWAYS been lovers of money, pride, self, etc etc referring to the signs and warnings God gave? Scoffing about recognizing these signs are happening around them?

I have a feeling people like this only do this out of fear, they do not like to admit the second coming is getting close, so they try to show thru out history how (in their opinion), most of these signs/ warnings, have always been around and taking place.

Can anyone answer why Peter seemed to be given knowledge about the times this would happen, when God is supposedly the only one to know the details on this, not even Jesus knows?

Furthermore, personally, when I look over those signs and warnings, I cannot find one that has not happened or is not currently happening…?


#6

Hi, Mike!
St. Peter is being Inspired by the Holy Spirit. No doubt this is already happening amongst the early Church and Peter speaks to reassure them; there is the issue of development… from their perspective Jesus, the Word Incarnate, came at the end of times; Jesus Taught that He would come again (Parousia) and that many present would not die before the signs would be demonstrated:

34 Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. (St. Matthew 24:34)

It is clear that this passage speaks of very imminent events.

Then there’s the passage dealing with Cephas and John:

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” 22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” (St. John 21:20-22)

There’s an expected expediency about the Parousia which later they begin to understand as only imminent in God’s Design–not in man’s chronological understanding:

8 But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance. (2 St. Peter 3:8-9)

Also, St. Peter, Inspired by the Holy Spirit, reflects on Christ’s Teachings:

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. (St. Matthew 24:9-13)

This theme is demonstrated in Scriptures even from the Old Testament… what is truly perplexing is how we still rather believe and follow the scoffers and false prophets instead of God’s Word.

You state that there’s nothing new since it seems that the world goes round… yet, Scriptures tells us that it is because of the elect that everything that has been prophesied to happen will not come upon the earth in a single implacable episode:

(…) 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened… (St. Matthew 24:1-34)

Now, if we truly pay attention and are sincere about what man has experienced we must agree that are many things that have in deed changed–not just local culture and weather but throughout the whole planet.

Maran atha!

Angel


#7

I disagree on some points, especially about time, When God told them this generation would not pass away until all these things happened, he was speaking to human beings, so why would God refer to a version of time a human had no understanding of…when you speak to someone, naturally you use terms and words they can understand and relate to. NO human can comprehend what it means that 1000 years can be like one day and one day like 1000 yrs. God being the creator of the universe, I would imagine he understand this. I believe whenever God mentions time or passage of time, he is referring to OUR understanding of the term, not his.

From what Ive seen, most people are not taken in by false prophets, how many people actually believe someone when they claim to be divine or even have supernatural powers?

And really, how many actual false prophets have we seen so far…I dont recall ever hearing of such a person, that actually had the powers and abilities to back them up, anyone can go around claiming to be Jesus or God, the difference between them and the REAL false prophets is, the FPs have abilities that back up their claim, ones that no other man has…thats the whole point of a false prophet, to draw as many people as possible away from the truth.

Consider this, in our world today, how many people would likely believe someone if they stood in public using a megaphone to announce they were Jesus returned…(not many right?), next, how many would believe the same person, doing the same thing in public, but this guy was demonstrating supernatural abilities right in front of everyone…imo, ALOT would believe him, and rumors of this would likely spread like wildfire, people would automatically believe there was something special about him and believe what he says.


#8

This audio (featuring Dr. Brant Pitre) may be quite helpful for some concerning the differing senses regarding the end of the world . . .

The Destruction of the Temple and the End of the World: Matthew Chapters 23-25

stpaulcenter.com/studies/audio-lesson/the-destruction-of-the-temple-and-the-end-of-the-world-matthew-chapters-23

CCC 115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

CCC 116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”

CCC 117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

(1) The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.

(2) The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.

(3) The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

God bless.

Cathoholic


#9

Hi, Mike!
…you don’t have to agree with me but it is what Scriptures demonstrates:

Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand. (St. James 5:8)

…and as St. John noted:

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” (St. John 21:22-23)

…and operating from the Inspirations of the Holy Spirit they knew that:

3 So we also, when we were children, were serving under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law: 5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:3-5)

That is the reason why the scoffers and mockers began to pull the Believers away from the Way; and it is as an answer to these assaults that Scriptures began to counsel against impatient and doubt–and the issue of time (a day is like a thousand years) emerges.

…as for false prophets, they emerged alongside of the budding Church:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not. (2 St. Peter 2:1-3)

1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: 3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. (1 St. John 4:1-3)

(…) 4 For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ… 8 In like manner these men also defile the flesh, and despise dominion, and blaspheme majesty… 10 But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted… 12 These are spots in their banquets, feasting together without fear, feeding themselves, clouds without water, which are carried about by winds, trees of the autumn, unfruitful, twice dead, plucked up by the roots,…
16 These are murmurers, full of complaints, walking according to their own desires, and their mouth speaketh proud things, admiring persons for gain’s sake… 18 Who told you, that in the last time there should come mockers, walking according to their own desires in ungodlinesses. 19 These are they, who separate themselves, sensual men, having not the Spirit. (St. Jude 1:1-25)

Further, consider the fact of the original schisms of the Church (East/West) and the myriads of non-Catholic sects that continue to splinter the Body of Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel


#10

**“Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand”. (St. James 5:8) **

The thing is though…when he made this statement, it was not actually accurate, here we are some 2000 + yrs later and still the second coming has not happened yet.


#11

mikele. You mentioned (emphasis mine):

[INDENT]“Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for** the coming of the Lord is at hand**”. (St. James 5:8) [/INDENT]

The thing is though…when he made this statement, it was not actually accurate, here we are some 2000 + yrs later and still the second coming has not happened yet.


mikele. The statement was absolutely accurate.

The first question is: WHAT do you think a “coming of the Lord” is? (A “coming of the Lord” in terms of Sacred Scripture?)

(Think of the answer in terms of Covenants)


#12

…again, you fail to understand that at the beginning of the Way it was seen as imminent and within their lifetime… think of it as technology: in the beginning was the huge computer that required a whole room to do its business… as time passed the 64K appeared; then the micro, then the laptop, then the handheld… every time a new discovery/adaptation pushed the understanding further…

As the Holy Spirit Inspired and Guided the Church, Believers began to understand more fully the purpose of the Messiah and Salvation: not just for Jews!

Conversely, Doctrine and Revelation also began to unfold as the Way began to take shape into Christianity and finally Catholicism (the whole world).

However, if you truly want to nitpick:

Jesus did Return, from the Tomb; and Believers did Witness His various Apparitions and, finally, His Ascension! …we have at least one post Ascension “Coming of the Lord” when Jesus converted Saul.

Maran atha!

Angel


#13

Dr. Scott Hahn in his Revelation audio series discussed the concept of various “comings of the Lord”.

He discussed “comings of the Lord” in the sense of “Covenant judgment”.

Keep this Old Testament definition of “comings of the Lord” in mind and let’s look at the James 5:8 quote again. (We will apply this Old Testament definition of “Comings of the Lord” in a New Testament sense eventually)

“Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand”. (St. James 5:8)

Who is St. James talking to here?

Well in a sense he is talking to just who he says he is talking to. The Jewish Christians that have been forced to flee due to persecution.

To the “twelve tribes of the diaspora” (literally, the Church at that time).

In another sense St. James is talking to the Church (at that time AND to the Church throughout the ages irrespective of time).

In another sense St. James is talking to you and me as individuals (a moral sense).

So already we are seeing the context of “different senses”.

Let’s look at the St. James 5:8 quote again, but this time, insert the phrase “Covenant Judgment” into the text and see if that might not give us more insight.

“Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for the Covenant judgment is at hand”.

Now as a Church, litugically we just got done going through much of the book of the Acts of the Apostles during Easter season.

WHO was chasing the new Jewish Christians out of town?

Who was causing a new “diaspora” of new Jewish Christians to outside Jerusalem?

Their Jewish brethren.

Now can we think of ANY sort of “Covenant judgment” that was brought upon the Temple and Old Covenant Judaism, that was SEEN in their actual lifetime?

Yes. The Roman invasion and destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

What about various “senses”.

Don’t WE as individuals undergo “Covenant Judgment” in a sense when we die?

Yes. It is THAT too!

But don’t WE as the Church and even the whole world undergo “Covenant Judgment” in a sense at the end of time?

Yes. It is THAT too!

This is WHY St. James 5:8, took place, is taking place, and WILL take place.

Keep these things in mind, and now go back and re-read the CCC quotes I posted a couple of posts ago.

Then re-read St. James 5:8 and see if the various layers of meaning, the various senses which are all true, the various dimensions of the meaning of the text don’t make any more sense to you now.

I hope that helps.


#14

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