hi im confuse of this bible passage i have some question about this passage of the bible:
2Thes. 2:1-4(NIV) it says:
3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
and the pope has the title of Vicarius Christi which is Vicar of Christ (Substitute) we know that Christ is God and Man… so it mains the claiming that he God himself?
if not the pope in the said verse, who is that man in the verse?
hope you can help me because im confuse in this verse.
The Vicar of Christ (the pope), is Christ’s visible representative on earth. Nowhere and at no time has the pope ever claimed to be divine. He is infallible in matters of faith and morals, but no impeccable (free from sin).
The person in this verse, quite to the contrary is not the representative of Christ, but the representative of Satan, the anti-Christ. Do not confuse the two.
“Vicar” doesn’t mean “Substitute” but “administrative deputy” --the pope doesn’t set himself up to be worshipped – he’s the “Servant of the Servants of God” (Pope St. Leo the Great’s term for his position)
Since English is not your native tongue. Vicar means:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin vicarius, from vicarius vicarious
1: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy
2: an ecclesiastical agent: as a: a Church of England incumbent receiving a stipend but not the tithes of a parish b: a member of the Episcopal clergy or laity who has charge of a mission or chapel c: a member of the clergy who exercises a broad pastoral responsibility as the representative of a prelate
— vic·ar·ship -ˌship\ nounWhy exactly would a Muslim care about this?
Sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God?
Opposes everything that is called God or is worshiped?
The pope doesn’t oppose God, or the worship of God, just the things that are not God, but are called “God” or are worshiped.
The one who would proclaim himself to be God certainly would oppose everything that is called God or is worshiped, though, so yes, it is referring to “the” antichrist (as opposed to only the “spirit of antichrist” as noted in the epistles of John, but that’s another topic.)
I have heard that some believe that this verse and other prophesies refer to both the pope and anti-christ. That is, the antichrist will be an anti-pope. I haven’t made any judgements on this yet, but it makes sense. Since the Church is God’s bastion of Truth, it would be wise of the Evil One to attack it in such a way. The same thing happened during the times of the OT antichrist Antiochus. The most sacred place, the Temple, was desecrated by the statue of Zeus. The religion had been perverted beyond recognition. At the height of the antichrists reign, do you think he will allow Rome to oppose him openly? I doubt it. Many feel that the true Church will be in exile. The same was true in Jesus’ time. The religious rulers in Jerusalem were not representatives of God’s will. That was happening out in the desert.
*A revolt. . .This revolt, or falling off, is generally understood, by the ancient fathers, of a revolt from the Roman empire, which was first to be destroyed, before the coming of Antichrist. It may, perhaps, be understood also of a revolt of many nations from the Catholic Church; which has, in part, happened already, by means of Mahomet, Luther, &c., and it may be supposed, will be more general in the days of the Antichrist.
The man of sin. . .Here must be meant some particular man, as is evident from the frequent repetition of the Greek article: o`, ‘the’ man of sin, ‘the’ son of perdition, ‘the’ adversary or opposer. It agrees to the wicked and great Antichrist, who will come before the end of the world.
In the temple. . .Either that of Jerusalem which some think he will rebuild; or in some Christian church, which he will pervert to his own worship: as Mahomet has done by the churches of the east.
Is 9:67 of Christ’s government there will be no end.
Mt 7:24 Jesus is like a wise man who built his house on a rock.
Mt 16:18 gates of Hell will never prevail against Christ’s church.
Mt 28:19-20 I am with you always.
None of those verses mean that what I said could not happen. I believe it was St. Hildegard of Bingen who had visions of an antipope. I heard that on another thread.
In the time that the antichrist rules the earth, what do you think the Catholic Church will be doing? Do you think he’s gonna leave it unscathed? I doubt it. I doubt the pope will be able to print out bulletins that spell everything out for us at that time. Who knows? We do know that the true Church and true Christians will be persecuted in the end. These things make me believe that an antipope is quite a possibility.
I doubt that an antipope would rule. There could be an antipope who try’s to take over, but that won’t happen. The office of the pope has to be filled by the Holy Spirit. It can’t be any other way since the Pope has the authority of infallibility. This is the power to bind heaven and earth. How in the world could a liar or an antichrist be given the authority to bind up heaven?? It just can’t happen. How can a Lie bind up heaven?
This isn’t saying that the church won’t be persecuted. In fact the Church is being persecuted right now in states such as Massachussetts and California. This doesn’t mean that an antipope is ruling the church.
1John 2:18 “…so now many antichrists have appeared”.
There is a real simple test given in the bible to see if someone is of the spirit of the anti-christ.
1John4:2-3 “This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antchrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.”
This is a fairly simple test that can be applied to someone accused of being an anti-Christ. Our Pope passes this test with flying colors. Seeing as how this is declared at every Mass, every day in the world.
So just because there are denominations out there making an astonishing claim such as what you said, doesn’t make it so. Especially when the bible gives us a simple test, which pretty much identifies these denominations to be in error.
I think the idea is that the true pope will be in exile.
The next two quotes come from other posters on another thread.
John of the Cleft Rock (14th Century)
Towards the end of the world, tyrants and hostile mobs will rob the Church and the clergy of all their possessions and will afflict and martyr them. Those who heap the most abuse upon them will be held in high esteem. At that time, the Pope with his cardinals will have to flee Rome in tragic circumstances to a place where they will be unknown. The Pope will die a cruel death in his exile. The sufferings of the Church will be much greater than at any previous time in her history. But God will raise a holy Pope, and the Angels will rejoice. Enlightened by God, this man will rebuild almost the whole world through his holiness. He will lead everyone to the true Faith
It is interesting that St. Hildegard (d. 1179) wrote that when the new Pope is elected immediately before the Antichrist, a cardinal will kill the Pope BEFORE HE IS CROWNED through jealousy, he wishing to be Pope himself; then when the other cardinals ELECT THE NEXT POPE this cardinal will PROCLAIM HIMSELF (anti) Pope, and two-thirds of the Christians will go with him. She notes that this Antipope as well as the Antichrist are descended from the tribe of Dan. If this private revelation of St. Hildegard turns out to be true, is it possible that this Antipope might be the False Prophet predicted in the book of the Apocalypse (Apoc 16:13; 19:20; 20:10; ch. 13 etc.) who will work hand in hand with the first “beast”, the antichrist, to subdue the world?
Like I said, I haven’t made up my mind on all this, but it makes a lot of sense. If the antichrist is to wield the power that he is destined to wield, I believe there is no chance that the Church will be operating in the same way under his reign.
First of all I can’t find “John of the Cleft Rock” listed under any saints index I have acess too.
Also this story doesn’t sound like the end of the world, nor does it sound like an antichrist ruling over the church. It sounds like it might be a particularly stressfull time in the church, but it has a good ending. However, since I can’t find him under any canonized saints list, well then I will just chalk it up to a dream.
Hildegard is not a canonized saint.
As such I can’t accept her dissertation as listed. I think at this point in time I would have to say it was just a dream. I myself have had a profound dream with Jesus telling me a coming prophecy of my life to come. But, that dream was over 13 years ago, and it hasn’t happened yet. I suppose I won’t know if it is just another dream, or if it is a real prophecy to come, until it happens. Or if I am on my death bed and it hasn’t happened then I guess I can be sure it was just a dream. I think it is like this for HIldegard. Since she isn’t a canonized saint, then certainly some of what she relates must be a dream, and maybe some of it is true. I would think if this story were true then she would be a canonized saint.
When Jesus responds to Peter’s question and speaks about the steward set over the lord’s household, in Luke 12:41-48, it reminds me of Isaiah 22:15-24 which speaks of the office of steward over the household of David at the time of King Hezekiah. Isaiah 22:15-24 reminds me of the words Jesus spoke to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19 because of several similar expressions: key and keys; open & shut and bind & loosen; a peg in a sure spot upon which hangs a household and the rock upon which the Church would be built. The description in Luke 12:41-48 of the steward over the household being responsible for giving the rest of the household their ration of food is also similar to Jesus’ command to Peter in John 21:15-17 to feed His lambs and sheep.
Taking these verses together, it seems to me that the Lord Jesus intended that there should be an office of steward over His household, His Church throughout the world, until His return and that Peter should be the first holder of that office.
History tells us that Peter headed the local Church at Rome for some years until his martyrdom there. It seems reasonable to me to assume that the man who succeeded Peter as the head or bishop of the local Church at Rome (the pope) also succeeded to Peter’s office as the steward over Christ’s Church throughout the world.