21 arrested in raid of 4 Phoenix-area McDonald's

From the San Diego Union - Tribune:

[INDENT]A raid targeting illegal immigration led to the arrests of 21 Phoenix-area McDonald's workers Friday, and authorities were still seeking 30 other employees as part of their investigation.

Those arrested during the raid of four McDonald's in Scottsdale, Tempe and Mesa were being held on suspicion of identity theft. It will take more time to determine whether any of them are illegal immigrants as officials suspect, said Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Deputies also searched a mansion in the tony Phoenix suburb of Paradise Valley owned by Richard Coulston, who owns the restaurants, Arpaio said. Coulston was not arrested.
The interesting thing is that they weren't arrested for being illegal aliens, but that they were arrested on suspicion of identity theft.

First, I agree with the Church that the employer is far more culpable than the alien if they go and hire the alien for a pittance. And I agree with the statements of Card. McCarrick (I can't believe I am saying this), that the government also has some culpability in that they allow the entry and then only do spot raids (Sheriff Joe might be the exception on this).

In light of that, here's the questions;

*]If, in fact, these are illegal aliens and they did use forged documents with somebody else's identity in order to secure work, are they culpable for the crime of using forged documents (which, I would think would be a sin against the truth...i.e., the 8th commandment)? Or are they excused because of (fill in the blank)
*]If, in fact, these are illegal aliens and they did use forged documents with somebody else's identity in order to secure work, what **moral **culpability does the employer have in regards to hiring them? Or are the employer be excused because of (fill in the blank)
*]Is it morally worse for
*]an illegal alien to work in this country under their own identity (in which case, the only way they could work is to do so on a cash basis, as it is illegal to hire somebody who is not a US national or having the proper work visa)...keeping in mind that most cash labor is not reported for income or social security tax purposes...
*]an illegal alien to attempt to establish a fraudulent identity so that they could work in a regular wage earning job...where taxes are withheld from their paychecks like with anybody else. Keep in mind that in this case, the identity that they assume could be anybody's...including yours.
Just curious on the above.

I really do understand why immigrants want to come here but in my opinion, they are absolutely culpable. It was done with the intent to deceive. It doesn’t matter if they’re legal or not. They’re here, they broke at the very least that law, and should not be excused.

If they had the means to do a background check and didn’t, then they too are at fault.

Tricky. They both very immoral (and criminal) in their own ways, but at least somebody working for cash isn’t living life with the identity of someone else.

Kind of like asking “Would you rather cut off your finger, or ear?”


If the documents reasonable appeared to be valid to the employer, they are excused on that basis. And even if they did a background check, it wouldn’t be on the illegal, it would be on the identity stolen.

The illegal alien has the bulk of the moral fault usually. Unless they were brought into this country by force.

Illegal aliens are sinning on many levels since they made a choice to enter the US knowing that it was illegal and then compounded the sin by stealing another persons identity to get work. Just because the owners of the company are also sinning does not justify the illegal aliens sin. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

none of the above, the greater evil is the act of the employer who hires them in the first place, notice who was NOT arrested in the news story cited

it is more typical that identities are sold for this purpose by their owners, not stolen

I would agree that the “greater evil” is committed by the employers who enticed the illegal workers here by offering them jobs. While the crimes of the illegal workers are partially mitigated by the needs of their families, the employers have no such excuse. However, the commission of party’s sinful behavior does not excuse another’s less sinful action. Illegal immigrants are still culpable to some degree. I believe that all people, especially followers of Christ, should feel morally required to follow the laws of the country they live in, unless the law itself is unjust. I do not believe US immigration policy is intrinsically unjust. In fact it is one of the most lenient immigration laws in existence, and we are one of the few countries that grant legal status to the children of illegal immigrants born on our soil.

Your second point though is bizzare and not one I have previously heard made. I have seen numerous reports of stolen social security numbers being used by undocumented workers. However I have nevers seen an academic study, or even reputable press report, that suggests that a significant number of social security numbers, let alone the majority of those used illegally, are sold by their owners. This would be bizzare behavior as it would risk the utter destruction of one’s credit for a pittance of a one time payment. Can you back up this claim? I am open to persuasion, but since this is not the prevailing understanding, would need real evidence.

I agree. There are good reasons for our immigration laws. They are valid and moral.

I have empathy for their hope to improve their lives and that of their families. I have more empathy for all the people around the world who wish to be here also but who have not taken it upon themselves to do so illegally.


Two managers were also arrested today.

it is a major industry and problem down here on the border, and has the corrollary problem that those who have sold their ss# cannot get SS or other benefits or work legally themselves, many seniors do this, family members do it with #s of dead family members, or of their children. I don’t know from studies and academic research I just know the practical problems that arise in trying to arrange assitance for people, or even getting them buried. yes ordinary ID theft is also a major problem but not the only way people get hired with false ID and SS#.

I think it is hard to understand the problem if it isn't right on your doorstep. Suppose you live in a town of ten people and twenty-one illegal immigrants drift in one day, looking for food, work, etc. How is the law practically applied?

What would Jesus do? Would He say:

a. "I'm sorry, but a completely man-made immigration policy made by a bunch of racist bigots says you have to go through a decade-long process,"


b. "Come unto me, all who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest"?

Hint: The one He'd say-He actually DID say in Scripture.

This is out of context. Jesus himself had experience with scripture used out of context.

In “b.” our Lord did NOT go on to say “therefore enter the lands of your neighbors illegally; take from their public the goods and services which are theirs to use upon yourself; for you say they have too much and you too little; plunder their wealth and redistribute it to you; your will and your welfare are paramount and my law “thou shall not steal” applies not to thee; fear not in your journey for you shall be assisted by those who offer not their own silver coins, but gladly those of their brothers and sisters”

Really, could you justify this blatant attack with actual facts?

No reason they can’t rest in THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

Jesus did say more then one thing in Scripture. He also prayed specifically NOT to remove His from the world…there is/was a purpose for keeping them/us here.

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