21 y/old who went deaf, dumb, and blind


#1

Scenario:

**There is a 21 year old who was baptized as an infant, and at 12, he stopped going to church and soon denied the Gospel all together. He had committed mortal sins in those years.

And at 21 years old, he suddenly went deaf, dumb, and blind and cannot understand anything at all… He lives until he is 60…**

According to Catholic theology, would this man be in heaven or hell? … Or would this have to only be answered with the Mercy of God?

But based on your own person opinions and theology, Heaven or hell?


#2

This is a frivolous question.

Reb Levi


#3

[quote="JD27076, post:1, topic:327624"]
Scenario:

**There is a 21 year old who was baptized as an infant, and at 12, he stopped going to church and soon denied the Gospel all together. He had committed mortal sins in those years.

And at 21 years old, he suddenly went deaf, dumb, and blind and cannot understand anything at all.. He lives until he is 60...**

According to Catholic theology, would this man be in heaven or hell? ... Or would this have to only be answered with the Mercy of God?

But based on your own person opinions and theology, Heaven or hell?

[/quote]

Please don't give those kinds of ideas to God. According to Catholic theology, if there is no way for this man to confess his sin to a priest, then God, being not bound by sacraments will save this guy's soul if he appeals to God's mercy, asks forgiveness etc.

Another question would be: do we have assurance that if someone dies in mortal sin that he wouldn't have converted 5, 10, 15, 30 years down the road? If God is truly serious about wanting everybody saved, then I presume he'll keep everybody alive who, despite being immersed in mortal sins, will one day convert if given the time.


#4

But he is blind, deaf, and dumb. As in cannot understand or comprehend anything. A mental disorder.

He will never repent because he can’t.


#5

I think you need to learn more about those who are deaf and blind. For one thing, they are not necessarily dumb in either sense of the word, esp if they lost those senses after learning to speak.

The hands of those I meet are dumbly eloquent to me. The touch of some hands is an impertinence. I have met people so empty of joy, that when I clasped their frosty finger-tips, it seemed as if I were shaking hands with a northeast storm. Others there are whose hands have sunbeams in them, so that their grasp warms my heart.

–Helen Keller, who lost her sight and hearing at the age of two from scarlet fever.


#6

[quote="St_Francis, post:5, topic:327624"]
I think you need to learn more about those who are deaf and blind. For one thing, they are not necessarily dumb in either sense of the word, esp if they lost those senses after learning to speak.

The hands of those I meet are dumbly eloquent to me. The touch of some hands is an impertinence. I have met people so empty of joy, that when I clasped their frosty finger-tips, it seemed as if I were shaking hands with a northeast storm. Others there are whose hands have sunbeams in them, so that their grasp warms my heart.

--Helen Keller, who lost her sight and hearing at the age of two from scarlet fever.

[/quote]

No no no no.. I questioned that at first, but this is not a Helen Kellers case.. They are blind, deaf, and mentally unstable that they cannot understand more.. Or see or learn anything, have to be take of for the rest of their lives.


#7

[quote="JD27076, post:4, topic:327624"]
But he is blind, deaf, and dumb. As in cannot understand or comprehend anything. A mental disorder.

He will never repent because he can't.

[/quote]

"Deaf and dumb", can you look those up and understand that not 1 person in a million is going to think "deaf and dumb" means "deaf and imbecile". If he's lost the mental capacity to even form the thought "I repent" then he's headed for satanland once his dream life is over. I voted "God's mercy" because i didn't think you had given "dumb" a meaning that the context didn't warrant one bit. I can't "unvote", sadly.


#8

Was his name Tommy? I think I heard of him.


#9

Assuming he has developed some sort of disease that destroyed his eyesight, hearing, and brain? He is still breathing. But he showed no signs of repenting before he developed this disease. It would depend on God's mercy. Maybe at the last moment God allows him to think and he repents.

In the real world, people who can't respond to the external world may actually be thinking. The "right to die" people overlook this possibility. Where is the "opening a can of worms" smilie?:confused:


#10

[quote="JD27076, post:4, topic:327624"]
But he is blind, deaf, and dumb. As in cannot understand or comprehend anything. A mental disorder.

He will never repent because he can't.

[/quote]

"Dumb" means something else in your context. But if he doesn't have the mental capacity to form the thought "I'm sorry" then his soul his Satan's to take when his dream life is over. I can't undo my initial vote (God's mercy). So satanland for our lucky guy.


#11

I heard he sure plays a mean pinball.

OP, in the phrase “deaf, dumb, and blind”, “dumb” just means that person can’t speak.


#12

You mean ‘mute’?


#13

[quote="JD27076, post:12, topic:327624"]
You mean 'mute'?

[/quote]

"Mute" is a nifty feature on my TV remote control. "The primary meaning of "dumb" is "not being able to speak". But to your credit, you did mention that he could no longer understand anything. I don't see how he could not be damned, honestly.


#14

[quote="JD27076, post:1, topic:327624"]
Scenario:

**There is a 21 year old who was baptized as an infant, and at 12, he stopped going to church and soon denied the Gospel all together. He had committed mortal sins in those years.

And at 21 years old, he suddenly went deaf, dumb, and blind and cannot understand anything at all.. He lives until he is 60...**

According to Catholic theology, would this man be in heaven or hell? ... Or would this have to only be answered with the Mercy of God?

But based on your own person opinions and theology, Heaven or hell?

[/quote]

You speak of this hypothetical man's deafness, dumbness, and blindness as if it were detrimental to his salvation. All things are in God's hands.


#15

Sort of…to be picky, “mute” can refer to someone who is unable to speak, but also someone who can speak but chooses to be silent. I’m not sure, but I think a dumb person is unable to speak, period; but their mental faculties would still be unimpaired unless they also had some other problem.

I’m just giving you a hard time, JD.:smiley: Didn’t you ever hear “Tommy”, the Pinball Wizard, “that deaf, dumb and blind kid (who) sure plays a mean pinball”? Now I feel old!


#16

I am interested in what makes you ask:

  • It might be good to go to confession before anything like that happens. (If this is motivated by personal concerns). :wink:
  • If you are looking for a sense of Who God is, I would say to remember that He is love, mercy and justice. Jesus has made it possible to be redeemed.
  • Now is this a matter of how we sin and repent; whether it is possible to repent when our physical selves are broken. Maybe you should research this; there are other things you will learn reading scripture and the Catechism with this question in mind.
  • If you are actually looking for an answer, prayer may be better than asking random people on the forums.

#17

[quote="Aloysium, post:16, topic:327624"]
I am interested in what makes you ask:
- It might be good to go to confession before anything like that happens. (If this is motivated by personal concerns). ;)
- If you are looking for a sense of Who God is, I would say to remember that He is love, mercy and justice. Jesus has made it possible to be redeemed.
- Now is this a matter of how we sin and repent; whether it is possible to repent when our physical selves are broken. Maybe you should research this; there are other things you will learn reading scripture and the Catechism with this question in mind.
- If you are actually looking for an answer,** prayer may be better than asking random people on the forums**.

[/quote]

I don't think you quite understand what a forum is, you actually get to ask for or enquire about stuff that random people respond to. Do you expect God would audibly answer his question, or perhaps God would suggest he asks the question on here?


#18

[quote="JD27076, post:1, topic:327624"]
Scenario:

**There is a 21 year old who was baptized as an infant, and at 12, he stopped going to church and soon denied the Gospel all together. He had committed mortal sins in those years.

And at 21 years old, he suddenly went deaf, dumb, and blind and cannot understand anything at all.. He lives until he is 60...**

According to Catholic theology, would this man be in heaven or hell? ... Or would this have to only be answered with the Mercy of God?

But based on your own person opinions and theology, Heaven or hell?

[/quote]

The Church has never forbidden us to pray for a person's soul, while at the same time teaching that there are people in Hell. Therefore, there is no "Catholic theology" teaching about where any particular person ends up--we do not know.

In your scenario, where a person who has rejected God at the age of 12 and in that state of rejecting God also entered a state of mental incapacity (the blindness and deafness seem unrelated to the question) such that he could not change his mind, so we must leave the boy to the mercy of God. We should pray for his soul, on the grounds that there were mitigating factors which caused him to reject God, or that a change occurred in the state of his mind/soul despite his apparent inability to think.


#19

There is no way of knowing.

This person having been baptized, was infused with Faith, Hope and Charity. At age 21 we may assume that there may have been development of virtue.

This person at 21 is now deaf, dumb and blind and here you point out the dilema of your question…

He cannot understand anything at all. This means you see that this person has no way to incorporate the world outside via words or sounds, yet still has sensation. His nerve endings are alive. He can touch, feel, know pain, know pleasure, know hot, cold and certainly knows sleep, hunger, fatigue and more.

What you cannot assess is what is going on in this person’s mind. Knowing that this person has Faith, Hope and Charity, you cannot deny and assuming the possiblity of virtue, this person still can think, believe, imagine and remmember.

Sincy you have no way of knowing, as you have portrayed this person what it is they experience in their mind…all you can say is this…something kind of like Abraham…

Yahweh-yireh

We can assume that this person has recollection of…

What it is to believe
The Sacramental Life
Life in Christ
and Prayer…

You would admit that this person can pray. You would admit that we can pray for this person. You would admit that this person has all the faculties within their mind to repent, to pray, to do whatever is necessary with the grace of God…because…

we believe that God calls all to himself and even the response to God is the work of God. You must admit that as Paul says…Has God abandoned His people?, by no means…and He will not abandon this person…

What happens to this person, where this person goes, is between God and Him, just like everyone else…

God will provide…

end of story…


#20

My understanding is that no one goes to hell without knowing exactly what they are walking away from.
Those in hell went their of their own accord. They were not coerced and they did not have diminished capacity for the decision.

At the age of 21, we do not know if he will go to hell or heaven. That is between God and him.

So how could we be expected to hypothesize that at the age of 60?


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