2nd Thessalonians 2


#1

I was reading this on another site, I found the last part to be strange, not sure what is meant by a ‘letter from us’…Anyone want to guess?

Near the end times, is this implying some false letters that supposedly point to a certain date or time will be circulating? but ‘from us’…that is really odd, how could anyone have a document written by God or angels? To my knowledge, I cant even think of one historical incident where someone claimed they had such a thing (maybe that is odd in itself? LOL)

**2 Thessalonians 2 New Living Translation (NLT)

2 Now, dear brothers and sisters,[a] let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.**


#2

:popcorn:


#3

No, it means not to be convinced that the end-times are already begun, even if someone were to produce supposed epistles from St. Paul about it.

**2 Thessalonians 2 **Douay-Rheims-Challoner:
And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.


#4

Well, thats strange, why would there be other verses that clearly tell us Jesus wanted us to know what some of the signs of the end times were, he listed many of these in the bible, and even went so far to say it was sinful to NOT recognize the signs for what they are…? Im confused now…Does Jesus want to us to watch for these specific signs or not?


#5

You asked originally about 2 Tessalonians 2 which is** not **is a sign of the end times, it states not to be deceived: “as if the day of the Lord were at hand”.


#6

Jesus did leave some very clear markers to His 12 Apostles of an impending tragedy that would afflict Israel. And that was His prophecy that the second Temple would be utterly destroyed and that the Jews and Israelite people would be massacred and dispersed over all the lands.

We know this because when this happened around 76 AD the Christians had scooted out of Dodge and were mostly spared.

However Jesus also taught us to NOT being concerned about the END OF THE WORLD.

Only GOD the Father knows when this will occur and it is not up to us to waste our time in trying to figure this out.

Why? Well firstly because by fixating into this. We loose sight of the more important aspect. Trying to leave our lives striving to become Saints, so that we can attain access to heaven as promised by Jesus.
What can possibly gain us that the world will end in 30, 50 or a million years from now?

Aren’t we supposed to live as good Catholic Christians trying to model our lives to Jesus?
All the rest is superfluous.



#7

I think you need to be careful because there are two ends that Jesus was talking to the Apostles privately.

Mat 24:3 And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the consummation of the world?

One was the end of the Jewish worship and their Temple, which Jesus gave signs to watch for to the Christians, so they could leave Jerusalem and would not to be caught in Jerusalem when the Temple would be destroyed. (War of the Jews) If all of the Christians would have been in Jerusalem, Christ Church could have also been destroyed.

They did heed the signs, according to Flavius Josephus, not one Christian was killed during that war.

The 2 question was about the end of times, which Jesus told them He does not even know when that is.:slight_smile:


#8

Go back to your Bible and re-read those ‘signs’. Ask yourself “aren’t all those signs actually things that are going on right now? Aren’t they things that have been going on – pretty continuously – throughout history? Isn’t it reasonable to presume that they were going on, too, during the 1st century AD?”

Once you’ve convinced yourself that, indeed, they have been going on pretty much continuously for the past 2000 years, it’ll be easier to see what Jesus was saying: “What? Ya’ll want to know when the end is coming? OK, then: it could be tomorrow; it could be next year; it could be in the year 2016. Don’t worry about the day and the time: just be prepared, and it’ll take care of itself.”

, and even went so far to say it was sinful to NOT recognize the signs for what they are…?

Maybe it’s because I haven’t yet had my first cup of coffee… but I don’t recall the ‘sinful’ reference. Could you refresh my memory?

Im confused now…Does Jesus want to us to watch for these specific signs or not?

He wants us to be ready, regardless when it will happen. Watching for the signs tends to take our eyes off Jesus; so, that would be a bad thing…


#9

**Gospel of Saint Mark 13

**3 And as he sat on the mount of Olivet over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him apart: 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall begin to be fulfilled? 5 And Jesus answering, began to say to them, Take heed lest any man deceive you. 6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and they shall deceive many. 7 And when you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, fear ye not. For such things must needs be, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and famines. These things are the beginning of sorrows.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. Be Ready at Any Hour 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.33 Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is.


#10

I understand what you are saying, but important to keep in mind, yes, lots of these things have been happening at all times, but never been a time when so many are happening at one time, that is the difference in modern times.

Give me a minute to search for the ‘sinful’ reference…


#11

Are you certain of this?

, that is the difference in modern times.

It would seem to me that the difference in modern times is that we have global communications networks, such that today, we know what’s happening everywhere, and instantaneously as it happens. That might create the appearance that more is happening, when really, it just means that we’re more aware of things that have been happening all along.

Give me a minute to search for the ‘sinful’ reference…

Cool. Thanks! :thumbsup:


#12

Here is one that seems to imply many will scoff at the ‘signs’ and claim that these things have happened thru out history…

: Men would mock the warning signs of the end of the age saying, “for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” (2 Peter 3:4). T


#13
  1. False Bible teachers would be money hungry. They would be smooth talkers, have many followers, and slur the Christian faith (2 Peter 2:1-3) See some at: Fakemessiah.com

  2. Homosexuality would be increasingly evident at the end of the age (2 Timothy 3:3)

  3. Earthquakes would be in diverse places (Matthew 24:7)

  4. Stress would be part of living (2 Timothy 3:1)

  5. Many wars would erupt (Matthew 24:6)

  6. People would forsake the Ten Commandments as a moral code, committing adultery, stealing, lying, and killing (Matthew 24:12)

  7. There would be a cold religious system, in denying God’s power (2 Timothy 3:5)

  8. Men would substitute fantasy in place of Christian truth (2 Timothy 4:4). This is so evident at Christmas when the birth of the Savior is lost behind the myth of Santa Claus.

  9. Deadly diseases would be prevalent (Matthew 24:7). The worldwide increase in AIDS deaths is almost inestimable. Over 160,000 Americans die of cancer each year.

  10. The fact that God once flooded the earth (the Noahic flood) would be denied (2 Peter 3:5-6). There is a mass of fossil evidence to prove this fact, yet it is flatly ignored by the scientific world because of its uncanny implication.

  11. The institution of marriage would be forsaken by many (1 Timothy 4:3)

  12. There would be an increase in famines (Matthew 24:7)

  13. Increase in vegetarianism would increase (1 Timothy 4:3-4)

  14. There would be a cry for peace (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

  15. The possession of Jerusalem would be at the center of international turmoil (Zechariah 12:3)

  16. Knowledge would increase (Daniel 12:4)

  17. There would be hypocrites within the Church (Matthew 13:25-30)

  18. There would be an increase of religious cults/false teachers (Matthew 24:11 & 24)

  19. The future would seem fearful to many (Luke 21:26)

  20. Humanity would become materialistic (2 Timothy 3:4)

  21. There would be many involved in travel (Daniel 12:4)

  22. The Christian Gospel would be preached as a warning to all nations (Matthew 24:14)

  23. Jesus said Christians would be hated “for His name’s sake” (Matthew 24:9)

24: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Luke 21:25-26).

25: Youth would become rebellious. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy (2 Timothy 3:2)


#14

We are not in the end of days and you should stop looking for signs. This seems to be a theme of yours in many threads.

Jesus told us NOT to look for signs but to always be ready. I believe him when he said that.
Stop looking for signs and live life according to Christ’s teachings otherwise you will have a life of stress.


#15

They’re not scoffing at the signs, they’re scoffing at the teaching that Christ will come again:

[quote=2nd Peter chapter 3]Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come [to] scoff, living according to their own desires and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming?* From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.”

They deliberately ignore the fact that … [t]he present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. …

But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that … the day of the Lord will come like a thief
[/quote]

It’s not a denial of signs of the parousia, but a denial of the parousia itself.


#16

This was already happening in the times of the Acts of the Apostles.

  1. Homosexuality would be increasingly evident at the end of the age (2 Timothy 3:3)

Here’s 2 Tim 3:3 – “callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good”. I’m not seeing the assertion you’re making here.

  1. Earthquakes would be in diverse places (Matthew 24:7)
  2. Stress would be part of living (2 Timothy 3:1)
  3. Many wars would erupt (Matthew 24:6)
  4. Deadly diseases would be prevalent (Matthew 24:7).
  5. There would be an increase in famines (Matthew 24:7)
  6. The possession of Jerusalem would be at the center of international turmoil (Zechariah 12:3)
  7. There would be a cry for peace (1 Thessalonians 5:3)
  8. There would be hypocrites within the Church (Matthew 13:25-30)
  9. There would be an increase of religious cults/false teachers (Matthew 24:11 & 24)
  10. The future would seem fearful to many (Luke 21:26)
  11. Humanity would become materialistic (2 Timothy 3:4)
  12. Jesus said Christians would be hated “for His name’s sake” (Matthew 24:9)
    25: Youth would become rebellious.

These have existed since before the time of Jesus, and continue to exist to today. Their presence is not a sign that the end is here.

  1. People would forsake the Ten Commandments as a moral code, committing adultery, stealing, lying, and killing (Matthew 24:12)

Umm… you have read Paul’s epistles, haven’t you? These are precisely the things that he was telling Christians to stop doing … in the 1st century AD!

  1. Men would substitute fantasy in place of Christian truth (2 Timothy 4:4). This is so evident at Christmas when the birth of the Savior is lost behind the myth of Santa Claus.

Here’s the actual Scripture passage (“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.”)

Two thoughts: First, this isn’t an end-times prophecy; this is Paul’s pastoral message to Timothy. Paul is talking to Timothy about the things that Timothy will experience in the course of his (Timothy’s) pastoral ministry.

Second, the ‘myths’ here aren’t garden-variety cultural fables; Paul is warning Timothy that people will forsake the truth of Christ for man-made religious myths. Again, this is something that’s been going on since the dawn of time.

  1. The fact that God once flooded the earth (the Noahic flood) would be denied (2 Peter 3:5-6). There is a mass of fossil evidence to prove this fact, yet it is flatly ignored by the scientific world because of its uncanny implication.

Wow, is this a mis-reading of that passage of Scripture! This isn’t about a denial of the flood narrative – this is saying, “those who deny that Christ will return are forgetting that God destroyed the world once, and will do it again at the end of time!” :wink:

  1. The institution of marriage would be forsaken by many (1 Timothy 4:3)
  2. Increase in vegetarianism would increase (1 Timothy 4:3-4)

No. Whoever is feeding you these things really doesn’t understand Scripture well.

There will be sects that forbid marriage to their adherents and who require them to maintain a strict dietary code.

  1. Knowledge would increase (Daniel 12:4)
  2. There would be many involved in travel (Daniel 12:4)

Really poor exegesis here. Here’s what Daniel 12:4 really says: “As for you, Daniel, keep secret the message and seal the book until the end time; many shall wander aimlessly and evil shall increase.” This is not an indication that “knowledge will increase” (whatever that’s supposed to mean!).

“Many involved in travel”? Really? :rolleyes:

I would recommend, mikekle, that you stick to good solid Catholic sources. :wink:


#17

The signs Jesus spoke about are in what is called the Olivet Discourse which is found in Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21. All of these point to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, not to the end of the world.

A letter was an official form of communication. Many people produced false letters. Paul is warning the Thessalonians to beware of people who present forgeries claiming that the second coming has already taken place. That’s all.

2 Thessalonians actually states that it is from Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. Most scholars believe that it was written around 51 AD while they stayed in Corinth. Acts 17 recounts Paul’s visit to the city of Thessalonica.

Tim-


#18

The key to understanding (not just scripture but anything) is context. Here’s a little more in context:
2 Thes 2:1-10
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.d] 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Footnotes:

[LIST=1]
*]2.2 Paul warns against over-eagerness to expect the second Coming, and specifies various signs to be looked for first.
*]2 Thessalonians 2:3 Other ancient authorities read sin
*]2.3 the man of lawlessness: i.e., Antichrist.
*]2.7 Evil will operate secretly till the final unmasking.
[/LIST]

Paul warns against over-eagerness with regard to the second coming


#19

Mikekle. Thanks for all your homework concerning your post 13.

Taking it to the next level would be to include relevant CCC citations associated with those verses. Sometimes there are several. (I’m sure you and others here know that but there may be “lurkers” reading here that would find that suggestion helpful so I included it).

This talk below (linked here) by Dr. Pitre from Dr. Scott Hahn’s website is also very insightful regarding navigating this whole topic.

The Destruction of the Temple and the End of the World: Matthew Chapters 23-25

God bless.

Cathoholic


#20

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