2nd Timothy

I believe that in 2nd Timothy that Paul states there is no intersesor other than Christ. If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors? Plus, why does the Church continue to use Sainthood as the preliminary way to call upon the Lord. I was born and raised Catholic and still have not heard nor seen valid answers to why Sainthood is deemed,if you will, higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jim Brun

[quote=jimbrun]I believe that in 2nd Timothy that Paul states there is no intersesor other than Christ. If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors?
[/quote]

Oi. Where to begin? All intercession of the Saints subsists under the headship of Christ’s intercession. If we are “in him and he in us” then we live his life; we intercede for one another. Are we not called to pray for one another?

Plus, why does the Church continue to use Sainthood as the preliminary way to call upon the Lord.

It doesn’t, and it never did. Where did you get such an idea?

I was born and raised Catholic and still have not heard nor seen valid answers to why Sainthood is deemed,if you will, higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jim Brun

Are you sure you were raised Catholic? If you were, you were (as were many) deprived of decent catechesis. But welcome to CA Forums! Here’s the place where you can catch up on what you missed. It’s downright embarrassing.

Preliminary? Huh?

Recommended reading:
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea1.asp

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
*Saints dead, prayer is necromancy (Dt 18:10-11)
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

*1Tim 2:5 - “One mediator between God and man”
1Tim 2:1-7 - offer prayers, petitions for all men
1Pet 2:5 - be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices through Christ
Mk 10:18 - only God is good (see next)
Mt 25:23 - well done my good and faithful servant
Jn 10:11-16 - I am good shepherd; one flock I shepherd (see next)
Jn 21:15-16 - feed my lambs, tend my sheep
Eph 4:11 - He gave some as apostles…others as pastors
Heb 3:1, 7:24, 9:12-13 - Jesus eternal high priest; one sacrifice (see next)
Rev 1:6, 5:10 - He made us a kingdom of priests for God

source: geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html

[quote=jimbrun]I believe that in 2nd Timothy that Paul states there is no intersesor other than Christ. If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors? Plus, why does the Church continue to use Sainthood as the preliminary way to call upon the Lord. I was born and raised Catholic and still have not heard nor seen valid answers to why Sainthood is deemed,if you will, higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jim Brun
[/quote]

This is a question that had been asked many times on this board but as someone coming from a Protestant background, myself, I can understand why it might seem strange to you. I don’t know if you have read any of the other threads on the subject, so if what I am about to write seems familar to you, I am sorry.

First, if you had a great need-say a loved one was ill- would you hesitate to ask a member of your church or a good Christian friend to pray for you? If you ask someonelse to pray for you then aren’t you you using an intercessor? Well, that is all that Catholics do when they ask a Saint to pray for them.

Where did you learn that the Saints are deemed highter then Jesus? I don’t know any Catholics that think that.

[quote=jimbrun]I believe that in 2nd Timothy that Paul states there is no intersesor other than Christ. If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors? Plus, why does the Church continue to use Sainthood as the preliminary way to call upon the Lord. I was born and raised Catholic and still have not heard nor seen valid answers to why Sainthood is deemed,if you will, higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jim Brun
[/quote]

As I recall I think you are talking about 1 Tim 1:5.

5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

It doesn’t say intercessor but mediator. I highly recommend stargin with the first verse when reading a chapter in scripture.

1]
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, INTERCESSIONS, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

WOW! You’ve got it all wrong. That verse in fact says that Christians should interceed for one another. In other words their should be LOTS of intercessors. We mearly believe that the intercession is made possibly by Christ mediation and so we pray to him. We however also believe that the prayers of a righteous man avail much, taking scripture at it’s fullness. We believe that those in heaven are not separated from Christ and can interceed for us. (do you think that once we die we are separated from the body of Christ?). They interceed to Christ. So you see your second statement that they are above Christ is a straw man. God bless and thanks for joining us. Stick around. You will find that you have other misconceptions.

Blessings

[quote=jimbrun]I believe that in 2nd Timothy that Paul states there is no intersesor other than Christ. If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors?
[/quote]

Your only reading part of the passage. If you read the liines leading up to it, you will see that Christians interceeding for Christians is part of the “formula” if you will. We are all a part of the body of Christ, and he allows us to participate in His intercession:

(1 Timothy 2:1-6)First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

So not only is Christian intercession allowed, it is actually urged and commanded by the Word of God. Christ’s mediation between God and man doesn’t nullify this.

And of course, those in heaven are still bound by the Word of God, so they do just what He commands and requests. Revelation makes it quite clear that those in heaven do hear our prayers and offer them up to the Lord:

(Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

[font=Book Antiqua](Rev 8:3-4) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [/font]

And since our prayers are mental things, one has to admit that the Lord allows those in heaven to “hear” our prayers in some way. Thus we see that it is God’s will. The Lord allows those in heaven to intercede, letting our prayers pass from us, to them, to Him.

(James 5:16) Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Since the prayer of a righteous man has great power in effect, and since Christians in heaven are perfected with Our Lord, they can intercede in a more profound way than can those still here on earth. And they do.

[quote=jimbrun]Plus, why does the Church continue to use Sainthood as the preliminary way to call upon the Lord.
[/quote]

It doesn’t.

[quote=jimbrun]I was born and raised Catholic and still have not heard nor seen valid answers to why Sainthood is deemed,if you will, higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

I was born and raised Catholic, and still haven’t heard any such thing - complete rubbish my friend.

Here’s a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, if you can find the spot in here where it says anything or anyone is higher than the Lord Jesus Christ, do let me know.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Hi Jim;

You said:

I believe that in 2nd Timothy that Paul states there is no intersesor other than Christ.

  1. Actually, Jim, I think you're speaking about 1 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 5, which states - in context:
    

[1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
[6] who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (1 Tim; 2:1-6)

  1. Quite to the contrary, the passage does not negate the ability of christians to offer intercessory prayers, but specifically calls for prayerful intercessions in verse 1 (above).  This is not in conflict with verse 5, which acknowledges Jesus as the one Mediator with respect to the redemption of humanity.
    
  2. One must understand that saints are simply our fellow Christians who are members of the body of Christ who are now in full communiion with God in Heaven.  They are more alive than the pilgrim Church here on Earth, and are still called upon to offer intercessory prayers by the faithful who are also part of the body of Christ, only here on Earth, just as in 1 Tim:2:1.  It is the whole Body of Christ acting as a community together when one member asks the other members to pray to God on his or her behalf.
    

If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors?

  1. It is because we take scripture at its word, Jim, that we believe that the Saints in Heaven can continue to offer their prayers to God on our behalf.  Catholics do take the whole of scripture at its word.  We simply do not accept the protestant interpretation of Scripture as the complete truth.  (See  the following):
    

Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God

Plus, why does the Church continue to use Sainthood as the preliminary way to call upon the Lord.

  1. It does not.  The primary way to pray to the Lord is to pray to the Lord directly - e.g. the "Our Father" or heartfelt personal prayer to God.  But that does not mean you cannot ask Mary and the other saints to pray with you to the Lord.  Intercessory prayer is absolutely biblical as well as a tradition that comes to us from the time of the Apostles.  (See  the passages from Scripture cited above.)
    

I was born and raised Catholic and still have not heard nor seen valid answers to why Sainthood is deemed,if you will, higher than the Lord Jesus Christ.

  1. You may have had Catholic parents, but you apparently never really knew your Catholic faith. It’s a pity that you were robbed of the religion of your birth through poor catechesis.

  2. In a nutshell, asking saints for their intercessory prayers is not deemed “higher than” praying directly to “the Lord Jesus Christ.” Nor are saints placed in a position above, or equal to Jesus Christ. There is no dichotomy. In other words, its not “either Jesus OR the saints,” but “Jesus AND the saints together.” It is in addition to praying to God that we ask the saints to pray with us to God. Thus, the Saints in Heaven are not a barrier to God, but a prayer amplifier.

Peace be with you, Jim and welcome to the forum.

Hi Jim:wave:

I know you ask your friends to pray for you. God is the God of the living. We are one living body of Christ. Through God’s grace, the part of the body of Christ that has died and is present with our Lord(Church Triumphant) hear us talking to them. It is like me picking up a phone or going online;) and asking you to pray for me. Just because you are not bodily present right next to me, does not mean I cannot and should not ask you to pray for me.

And just because we also ask the Church Triumphant to pray for us, does not mean we do not also take our own prayers to God through Christ. We ask the saints in heaven as well as on earth to pray with us to God, not ask them to pray to God because we somehow think we cannot take our prayers to God ourselves.

If you have a problem you pray to God asking for His help and guidance. You also ask your friends to pray for you. This is exactly what we Catholic Christians do, pray to God and ask our friends to pray for us also. Except some of our friends we ask are part of the Church Triumphant.

May God Bless you and keep you safe in His loving arms.
Maria

[quote=mercygate]Oi. Where to begin? All intercession of the Saints subsists under the headship of Christ’s intercession. If we are “in him and he in us” then we live his life; we intercede for one another. Are we not called to pray for one another? It doesn’t, and it never did. Where did you get such an idea?Are you sure you were raised Catholic? If you were, you were (as were many) deprived of decent catechesis. But welcome to CA Forums! Here’s the place where you can catch up on what you missed. It’s downright embarrassing.
[/quote]

One of the truely unusual aspects of the concept of communion of saints is the fact that Paul states absent from the body, present with the Lord. If one has moved on to meet the Lord then one is not here with us. Having others here on earth pray for us or intersede with us (Job and Abraham just to mention 2 who did such in scriptures) is fully scripturally based. I know that Revalations speaks of the twelve elders with the bowles containing the prayers but that particular scripture is slightly unclear as to its meaning.
Secondarily, where does it state that anyone prayed to anyone else other than Yaweh, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost? I can not find any such scriptures that states that that happened. If you use the Revalations scripture as the foundation of the communion of saints, then you are using sand as your foundation. The Rock (Jesus) is where we all should base our lives and theology. I have no arguments against the Pope, Mary (even though I understand others arguments against prayers to her) and most Catholic doctrin. But praying to St. Michael for one thing and St. Anthony for another is entirely different. These people have moved on. What is to say that I can not ask my grandfather, who had died, to pray for me too? He is with the Lord. He is within his Glory.
May God richley Bless you all.

Jim, you there? i know it’s only your second post, can be a little confusing. We’re here for you.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you,
Tom

Jim,
Please don’t take anything I say the wrong way. I have a tendency to be a bit glib…

[quote=jimbrun] I know that Revalations speaks of the twelve elders with the bowles containing the prayers but that particular scripture is slightly unclear as to its meaning. .
[/quote]

What’s unclear? The ‘elders’ in heaven are bringing the prayers of the ‘holy ones’ on earth to God. Seems clear to me…

[quote=jimbrun] Secondarily, where does it state that anyone prayed to anyone else other than Yaweh, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost? I can not find any such scriptures that states that that happened. If you use the Revalations scripture as the foundation of the communion of saints, then you are using sand as your foundation. …
[/quote]

Revelations is sand? Revelations is somehow “not the word of God”? News to me…and I think several of my Fundimentalist friends would have your head for this!
In Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).
Wait…we’re asking the angels and heavenly hosts to praise God with/for us? How un-Scriptural is our Scripture!
And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2). Wow. The divine author of Scripture must have really screwed this up…right?
May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always,
RyanL

"Revalations speaks of the twelve elders with the bowles containing the prayers but that particular scripture is slightly unclear as to its meaning. "

It’s gotta mean something Jim and you seem to have come up short as to what it does mean. Isn’t all scripture useful for teaching? Well then what the heck does it mean Jim.

" If you use the Revalations scripture as the foundation of the communion of saints, then you are using sand as your foundation."

Actually it’s not the foundation of the doctrine of communion of the saints. I would use 1 Cor 12, Romans 12, that say that we are the body of Christ. Then the scriptures tell us in Rom 8 that “nothing can separate us from the love of God” and in the Gospels Jesus tells us that “God is not God of the dead but of the living”. So those in heaven are in Christ and are therefore members of his body, united with him they can pray for us through his mediation. Now you may say, oh, they don’t know what is going on down hear. Jesus tells the Apostles “you shall sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel”. Now how can they judge what they do not know. We are told there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentent sinner. Doesn’t sound like they don’t know what is going on down hear to me. And Hebrews 12:1 says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. So they know what is going on. And this all makes sense out of those verses you call straw.

By the way I’m a little cornfused. Do we base our theology on Jesus or the Bible? I don’t think it is either but I would hardly equate Jesus with the Bible. And what is the pillar and foundation of the truth my dear friend. I’d have a look at 1 Tim 3:15. I hate to tell you but it’s not the Bible (though that is a component) and it doesn’t say Jesus either (though certainly he is the ultimate means of truth). Trust not in your own understanding Jim. Prov 3:5. He will give you shepherds after his own heart. (jer 3:15). Learn who they are from that Bible. Then submit to their teachings and come and drink deeply and eat of the wedding supper of the Lamb. The most holy Eucharist. You can come back.

Blessings

[quote=jimbrun]One of the truely unusual aspects of the concept of communion of saints is the fact that Paul states absent from the body, present with the Lord. If one has moved on to meet the Lord then one is not here with us.
[/quote]

Scripture, my friend, paints a different picture. We may be seperated physically, but not spiritually:
(Hebrews 12:1-2, 22-24)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God…

…But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
When we come to Jesus, our foundation and source for the new life, we don’t come to Jesus alone. We come to everyone in His body. Death is powerless to seperate us from Christ, and hence, powerless to seperate us spirtually from one another.
(Romans 8:38-37)
For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[quote=jimbrun]What is to say that I can not ask my grandfather, who had died, to pray for me too?
[/quote]

Nothing at all. By all means, if you are confident that your grandfather is with the Lord in heaven, it is fine and good for you to ask him to pray for you.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

[quote=jimbrun] If we are to take scripture at its word, then why is the Communion of Saints including Mary, prayed to as intersesors?
[/quote]

The pragmatic answer is that 2000 years of Catholic history has shown that asking the saints in heaven to pray for us works…prayers get answered.

Scripture clearly shows us that there is nothing wrong with addressing the angels and the righteous dead directly (Daniel 3:58, 86)

Scripture clearly shows us that the righteous dead unceasingly pray the living (2 Maccabees 15:12-14). So asking them to pray for us is not asking them to do anything that they are not already doing.

Scripture also clearly shows us that God is pleased to work wonders through his faithful servants, even through the righteous dead (Sirach 46:20 and 48:14).

Of course, it should be understood that the saints in heaven work, through Jesus, with Jesus, and in Jesus, as branches on the Vine, and never above Jesus or in opposition to Jesus.

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