50% wine & 50% water in the Eucharist.


#1

I have noticed in my few visits to the Catholic Churches abroad that the Pastor mixes 50% wine with 50% water in the Eucharist.

My question is why that cannot be 1% wine with 99% water or juice, for the following reasons:

  1. Solving alcohol addiction issue, (which makes it somehow reasonable practice in front of other religions, specially Islam).
  2. Consuming less wine bottles per year thus reducing expenses on the Church.

#2

What you are seeing is NOT 50% wine and 50% water.

It is wine, with a few drops of water added. The contents of the chalice in fact must absolutely be more than 50% wine or else it is no longer predominately wine and therefore no consecration can occur. That’s why priests are very careful to put in just a drop of water, so that there is no doubt that the chalice contains wine.


#3

But if even a crumb of the Consecrated bread is would host the Real Presence, how would the same not apply to the wine?


#4

a drop of wine in amongst a whole cup of water does not have the appearance of wine, therefore invalid matter.
Same goes for a crumb of the Eucharist, if it is not large enough to be called bread then the Real Presence is unlikely to be there.


#5

I’m not sure which parish you’ve seen that formula of mixing 50/50 during Consecration at Catholic Mass. Most Priest and Bishops that I’ve witnessed even serving as a Altar boy and an Adult acolyte on the sanctuary is the priest using a mere drop of water from the cruet (which represents symbolically our humanity. before consecration.

Why a priest would use 50% wine and 50% water for consecration ratio in the chalice is beyond me.


#6

To avoid confusion or questions, it would appear that using red wine would be "better" than using white wine.


#7

there is no confusion or question and either is correct. There is no reason whatever for any lay person to question what the priest is doing on the altar unless they know for absolute fact with evidence they can take to the bishop that he is not following the norms. This speculation is a complete waste of time and designed by the Liar to turn our minds away from the truth of the sacrifice of the altar, to our own pride in thinking we know more than the priest and can catch him out in some way. If you want to participate fully in the Mass remove these silly musings from your mind.


#8

This reminds me of some humor:

Back some years, I heard a young convert say: “It was easier to believe that that tiny Host was really Body, than to believe it was actually bread”.

:slight_smile:

ICXC NIKA


#9

I too prefer red wine to be used as it is visually far more symbolic, however the regulations simply require the wine to be the ‘fruit of the vine’ and as we all know that can produce a product that ranges from practically colourless to deep burgundy. In my parish we use something that is pretty close to Port, by the looks of the bottles in the Sacristy.

In regular day-to-day life, I prefer the taste of white wine and can’t stand red. At Church however, the situation is entirely reversed. Perhaps it’s something to do with placing wine in a metal chalice rather than a glass? Maybe my parish uses a particularly ‘nice’ wine? Either way I’m glad they use what they do, since the symbolism matches the consecration.


#10

So you would be upset if you learned that the wine was not wine but ribena etc for those in non alcoholic communities…

This is a genuine question
Does it matter what it is in that it all turns into the body and blood of Jesus Christ upon consecretaion?


#11

It very definitely does matter.

Ribena isn’t ‘fruit of the vine’. It’s not wine. It isn’t the sacrament that was instituted by Jesus at the Last Supper.

If Jesus has wanted us to use a cordial for the purposes of consecration into the Precious Blood, he would have squeezed some fruit juice into some water first. But he didn’t. He used wine and unleavened bread, being as they are symbolic elements for the Jews regarding Passover and He Himself became the Sacrificial Lamb. That’s why we also call Jesus “The Lamb of God”.

So Ribena would never and could never substitute for wine.


#12

What your stating is ridiculous. No ordained priest would avoid not using wine for consecration.
And as for non-alcoholic communities what’s the big deal?

The consecrated host is all the faithful requires.


#13

It’s worth going further to say that ‘grape juice’ also would not suffice since it is not wine. There must be some fermentation to make it ‘wine’, and although it doesn’t need to be distilled to the point where the alcohol exceeds the grape content, some parishes use fortified wines - of the style of sherry and port - when they only use a little of it at any one Mass since the more fortified the wine, the longer it lasts. But for the purposes of a non-alcoholic community, it could be as little as 0.1% ABV and would still count as wine.


#14

That’s just it, the matter has to be valid. It is no more acceptable to use nonalcohol beverage in the place of wine at Mass than it is to use Oreos in the place of bread.

God Himself (as our LORD) has laid down the rules for a valid sacrifice, as He did in the Exodus, and as then, we are not allowed to change them. If something that is not wine is used, it simply will not become His Blood.

ICXC NIKA


#15

I just noticed the questioner regarding ‘Ribena’ lives in Yorkshire. This is clearly a reference to the opening episode of the tv sitcom “The Vicar of Dibley”!!


#16

They would have to be those mini-Oreos, or else you’d get crumbs. To boost attendence, we tried it in our parish.

Just kidding.

The priests most concerned with saving a little wine might be missionaries. Isn’t wheat bread the only requirement?


#17

In the Byzantine its common to add more water to the Blood of Christ right before Communion. Its called “Zeon”, and the hot (or boiling) water represents the fervor of faith full of the Holy Spirit. The intention is to warm the chalice, because Christ is alive therefore his body and blood should be warm like that of the body of one who is alive. In Slavic traditions, a lot more water is added compared to Greek traditions.


#18

How do you know that’s what they are doing? And abroad - do you mean Europe, the U.S., etc.? That’s a relative term :wink:


#19

I am an alter server in the latin rite, ordinary form, who hands the cruets to the priest, stands there while he fills the chalice and then recieves the cruets back from the priest. On Sunday Masses it can be as much as a half quart of wine and it is handed to the deacon.

I have never seen anything but the smallest amount of water added to the wine.

-Tim-


#20

That’s just the question, though: does it “all turn into the body and blood” no matter what it is? Or, as in Catholic and Orthodox sacramental theology, does the matter matter?


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