705 Years of UNAM SANCTAM


#21

Does “subject to the Pope” require their consent?

I am subject to my state to obey speeding laws, and yet I am a disobedient subject since I don’t consent to drive 55.


#22

Yes. That is the entire summation of the Bull.

If everyone is automatically subeject to the Pope whether they want to or not, then that would make the Bull to be nothing more than nonsense.

I am subject to my state to obey speeding laws, and yet I am a disobedient subject since I don’t consent to drive 55.

And thus you get punished. Exactly.

You must make a choice via your will to subject yourself to the law.

What Boniface was obviously not saying was:

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature remain just as they are right now

Hello?

This is plain.


#23

I will get a speeding ticket regardless of my consent.

And those who will be damned will be damned regardless of their own, should they fail to repent of their sins, including the sin of disobedience.

I’m afraid your reading of papal bulls carries absolutely no weight of me.


#24

Not so.

If you consent to subject yourself to the law, you get no speeding ticket.

You you consent not to subject yourself to the law, then you get the speeding ticket.

I’m afraid your reading of papal bulls carries absolutely no weight of me.

My reading is the historic one.

So you agree that this is basically what Boniface declared?

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature remain just as they are right now

Since everyone is automatically born “subject to” the pope and they have no say one way or another, then that is exactly what you propose he said.

That is painfully mistaken.


#25

They seem to be stretching the idea of being subject to the Pope to the extent that it applies to anyone whether you want it or not. What does it mean to be subject to the Pope anyway. Are we supposed to believe that a Jewish rabbi or a Buddhist monk is subject to the Pope? Are Protestant neo-conservatives in favor of the war in Iraq under the subjection of the Pope? Or are they rejecting such? The newspaper reports say that the Pope has declared that the war in Iraq is not morally justified. So if you do not subject yourself to that opinion, then what?
cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html
meaus.com/iraq-war-pope.htm


#26

Just as you are subject to the laws of the community in which you travel, you are subject to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

You are simply disobedient.

Invincible ignorance may save you, but to knowingly reject Catholic teaching is to risk your salvation.

That is the simple fact of the matter.


#27

You keep repeating this so I have to ask again…

So you agree that this is basically what Boniface declared?

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature remain just as they are right now

Since everyone is somehow automatically born “subject to” the pope and they have no say one way or another, then that is exactly what you propose he said.

If the mere fact that one is a human being means they are subject to the pope automatically, then the Bull in question is meaningless. You only make your Vicar Boniface speak jibberish.

Being subject to the Pope, by definition, means willful submission.


#28

As I said, it depends on what the definition of “subject to” means. At the base, yes, every human creature is called by Christ to be part of his Catholic Church. You seem to harbor the notion that there is some threshold of submission which makes one sufficiently subject to the Pope. That is not the case. You were presumably baptized Catholic; you are no longer Catholic. You are likely insufficiently subject to the Pope seeing as you have rejected the Bride of Christ and are likely not protected by invincible ignorance depending on the level of catechesis you have had. That’s a risky proposition.

Even within the Church, we seek to draw closer to God. It is not sufficient to be a baptized and confirmed Catholic. We must be free of mortal sin when we die. Not all of us will be; God in His mercy and judgment alone decides. We can only strive to be obedient, which includes obeying the successor of the man Christ told to “feed his sheep”.

Thus, when the Catholic Church says that non-Catholics are in imperfect communion with her, she is saying that non-Catholics are to some degree subject to the Pope. Whether we are sufficiently so is always the question.

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI certainly have far greater influence on faith and morals than is demarcated by Catholics alone. There are simply no greater and more prominent religious leaders on the scene today, and I live not far from Billy Graham.

Like it or lump it, Popes matter. God made them matter.


#29

I think this was well said, I agree with this. :thumbsup:


#30

“And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” John 10:16 ESV

We are all subject to Christ, who is God, just as we are all subject to the Vicar of Christ, whom God established.

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [4] in heaven.” Matthew 16:19 ESV


#31

It depends on the definition Boniface was plainly using (which is self evident from the text).

At the base, yes, every human creature is called by Christ to be part of his Catholic Church. You seem to harbor the notion that there is some threshold of submission which makes one sufficiently subject to the Pope.

Of course. Yes.

It is called obedience to and doctrinal unity with the Pope.

"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors… " (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928)

“Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam.” (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council)

“This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate.” (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903)

Etc., etc., etc…

The threshold of submission to the Papacy is the exact same as the threshold of submission to the Church.

Catholics usually have no problem discerning the threshold for subjecting oneself to the Church. It is not rocket science.

You were presumably baptized Catholic; you are no longer Catholic. You are likely insufficiently subject to the Pope seeing as you have rejected the Bride of Christ and are likely not protected by invincible ignorance depending on the level of catechesis you have had. That’s a risky proposition.

Even within the Church, we seek to draw closer to God. It is not sufficient to be a baptized and confirmed Catholic. We must be free of mortal sin when we die. Not all of us will be; God in His mercy and judgment alone decides. We can only strive to be obedient, which includes obeying the successor of the man Christ told to “feed his sheep”.

Thus, when the Catholic Church says that non-Catholics are in imperfect communion with her, she is saying that non-Catholics are to some degree subject to the Pope. Whether we are sufficiently so is always the question.

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI certainly have far greater influence on faith and morals than is demarcated by Catholics alone. There are simply no greater and more prominent religious leaders on the scene today, and I live not far from Billy Graham.

All this talk off topic and you still did not manage to address my post.

Here it is again. We are talking about Unam Sanctum:

So you agree that this is basically what Boniface declared?

“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature remain just as they are right now

Are you saying that Boniface was declaring that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that all humans be exactly what they are already?

That would be pure genius, would it not?..not to mention a total waste of time.


#32

So you are saying that Boniface was commanding all men to be what they are already?

That would amount to nonsense.

Boniface was declaring that men must do something in particular to be saved. He was not declaring that they merely be what they all already are.


#33

The beginning and end of the Bull, Unam Sanctam, sums everything up to be “No Salvation Outside the Church.” All of salvation comes from Christ, and Christ is the Head of the Church. Christ and His Church are One. Therefore the means of Salvation are from the Church, by Christ. All truths lead to the Catholic Church. For all Truths are from Christ revealed to His Church. And it is these Truths that certain people or groups pick up on, which are in turn calls to Catholic Unity. For example, the Liturgy, the Bible, the Creeds, Love, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc. are all calls to Catholic Unity.


#34

In all that, you still avoided the question.


#35

The statement clearly says that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that one be subject to teh Roman Pontiff. Now Jews reject Catholicism and they reject submission to the Pope. And yet they can still be saved.


#36

I answered Atemi’s silly question. Since he doesn’t like the answer; he ignores it.

Since he doesn’t like the Church, he ignores her.

Since he doesn’t like the Pope, he ignores him.

So why listen to someone on the subject of obedience who disdains obedience?


#37

I dunno. I’m a fellow Catholic, but I think Atemi has a good point here that you guys are not addressing.

Mind you, I’m sure there’s a way to address it, but repeating the “broad” interpretation of EENS again and again isn’t doing the job.

Boniface was addressing rebellious behavior by the French king and certain of his subjects, right? And his immediate goal at the time was to tell them to get back in line.

Which means Atemi is right – the kind of “subjection” he was talking about isn’t the de facto kind you exhibit by simply living in a territory with a recognized authority, but a deliberate recognition of one’s subjection with appropriate behavior.

No doubt Boniface believed that the rebellious Catholics were already his subjects regardless of their opinions on the matter – but he was also telling them to act like it, or their souls would be in danger.

Boniface didn’t say “We solemnly declare and define that every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff,” though he doubtless believed that (in the de facto sense of “subject”). He defined a condition for salvation – a condition he presumably felt the rebellious Catholics were in danger of not meeting due to their actions.

Now, it’s true that the definition still needs to be looked at in the context of the Church’s pre-existing understanding of salvation, so I don’t agree with what I suspect would be Atemi’s ultimate conclusion (judging by his having left Catholicism at some point). But I have to agree with him that Boniface’s definition only makes sense if “subject” is used in reference to the subject’s actual behavior, rather than the authority possessed by the Pope even over those who do not recognize that authority.

Usagi


#38

You give Atemi’s fishing expedition through papal bulls too much credit, I’m afraid.

The Church’s position is quite clear, although insufficiently uncharitable to be the caricature Atemi and the like desire. It is that it is indeed necessary to come to Christ through the Church for salvation. The question is, and always has been, precisely how this is to be done.

Atemi and the rest like to pretend the Church views salvation as a kind of country club—members get saved, non-members get damned. The Church doesn’t even maintain that Catholics who attend Mass faithfully every Sunday will be assured of salvation. It depends on whether they die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin or not.

Saying that one must be subject to the Supreme Pontiff is no different than saying one must come through the Church to be saved. The question is and always has been one of degree. Whether French King or Seventh Day Adventist, one is subject to the Vicar of Christ on Earth. One may or may not recognize this authority. Some of those who do not may be protected by invincible ignorance in the sense that they are not knowingly rejecting the Catholic Church; they simply listen to people like Atemi too much and thus have a grossly distorted view of the Church. It is this caricature they reject. Such rejection may not be sufficient to meet the mortal sin requirement of knowing disobedience.

The Church, the Bride of Christ, exists to show us the path to salvation. We ignore her and her Pope at our peril, for the way is narrow. How does one avoid mortal sin except through the sacraments? How does one repent of mortal sin except through the sacrament of penance? Stripping such things away through the sin of pride is like placing obstacles in your path to salvation.

Contra Atemi, author of “The Theology of Repetition”, obedience is not digital but analog. It is a question of “How obedient” with a spectrum ranging from “Utterly disobedient” through “Invincibly ignorant” to “Utterly obedient”. Place Milton’s Satan (“Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven”) at the utterly disobedient pole and Jesus Christ at the “utterly obedient” pole if it helps.

We will be judged on our obedience. Obedience is important. Listen to the Pope, Christ’s Vicar on Earth. Join the True Church and partake of the Eucharist, as Christ commanded us. Confess and repent and sin no more.

Anything else is just throwing dice with your soul at stake.


#39

Because you are misinterpreting and slanting what his objections are. He has some legitimate questions on this Bull and rather than answer his objections, you simply launch a personal attack on him.


#40

Oh, please. Atemi’s “legitimate question” boils down to, “Does Boniface damn everybody or nobody?”

Do you guys even read your own posts? You clearly don’t read the responses to them.


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